bradg
New Member
I will be staying with F10,if its not broken dont fix it.
F10 Vs VETKLEEN
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Slytherin
Very Well-Known Member
johnnyeggbeater
Not so new Member
Vetkleen
Please find following the attached copies received from the Silliker an Australian testing lab.
Andrew, Vetkleen has gone to the expense (which is no small investment) of testing your product at the exact same lab. under the exact same tests.
Andrew, would you like me to post you the results we received from these test?
Regards, Chris Pennisi.
Vetkleen - Cleaning up.
Please find following the attached copies received from the Silliker an Australian testing lab.
Andrew, Vetkleen has gone to the expense (which is no small investment) of testing your product at the exact same lab. under the exact same tests.
Andrew, would you like me to post you the results we received from these test?
Regards, Chris Pennisi.
Vetkleen - Cleaning up.
johnnyeggbeater
Not so new Member
Vetkleen
The Attachments.
The Attachments.
ChemicalEssentials
Not so new Member
I see you still won't give the forum members the answer to the key issue, which is that Vetkleen has not ever tested against the vast majority of pathogens that it claims to kill. Ditto safety/toxicity testing. No answers here, just redirection.
You forget that F10 has been on the market here in Australia for 8 years now, people know if it works or not. So do people in the UK, USA, NZ, Europe, Middle East, Africa, etc. So feel free to show everyone Chris, but then please expect that I will also show tests we've got on Vetkleen, past and current versions? People in glass houses etc...
Re your so called F10 Silliker tests - seems the APVMA didn't think much of them either, notice that F10 has never had its registration pulled for being ineffective despite these tests being given to them last year.
You talk about great expense for a run of simple tests. Good point Chris, and it addresses the point of why Vetkleen is cheaper than F10. Your lot have done a few simple tests and call it "vast expense". Do you even begin to understand the costs of running hundreds of tests over 15 years internationally, as well as numerous international regulatory registrations and approvals? Plus GMP approved facilities, audit costs etc etc. When you have done almost no testing its easy to offer cut price product, but don't for one moment think you're selling the same thing.
You forget that F10 has been on the market here in Australia for 8 years now, people know if it works or not. So do people in the UK, USA, NZ, Europe, Middle East, Africa, etc. So feel free to show everyone Chris, but then please expect that I will also show tests we've got on Vetkleen, past and current versions? People in glass houses etc...
Re your so called F10 Silliker tests - seems the APVMA didn't think much of them either, notice that F10 has never had its registration pulled for being ineffective despite these tests being given to them last year.
You talk about great expense for a run of simple tests. Good point Chris, and it addresses the point of why Vetkleen is cheaper than F10. Your lot have done a few simple tests and call it "vast expense". Do you even begin to understand the costs of running hundreds of tests over 15 years internationally, as well as numerous international regulatory registrations and approvals? Plus GMP approved facilities, audit costs etc etc. When you have done almost no testing its easy to offer cut price product, but don't for one moment think you're selling the same thing.
ChemicalEssentials
Not so new Member
I forgot a few things:
1) Funny how Vetkleen passed the TGA test (that Chris attached) in November 2008 without reformulating the products, as that's quite a different result to the same test with the "old" Vetkleen in April 2008 (and yes, I have all the docs). Remember that we have been told only "manufacturing procedures" have been changed. So why the difference?
2) The other test Chris attached shows log3 kill in 5 mins. How then, does the Vetkleen label, and all marketing material, claim a 2 min kill for gram +ve and gram-ve bacteria at the dilutions tested? Is this just assumed? The tests at 2 mins have never been performed.
This is the whole point of actually testing the product itself, not simply making identical claims to F10! F10 has been tested at numerous dilutions, numerous contact times including speed trials, under numerous conditions. Vetkleen has not.
3) In a convoluted sense - I wonder why Chris is bagging F10 - if he's saying F10 doesn't work then using their logic of "Vetkleen is the same as F10" then it doesn't work either. Try and get your brain around that one. The only reason for his mud slinging is to deflect from the fact that they do not have the testing F10 does, and cannot offer the same peace of mind that F10 does.
I await tomorrow mornings installment...
Ciao,
Andrew
1) Funny how Vetkleen passed the TGA test (that Chris attached) in November 2008 without reformulating the products, as that's quite a different result to the same test with the "old" Vetkleen in April 2008 (and yes, I have all the docs). Remember that we have been told only "manufacturing procedures" have been changed. So why the difference?
2) The other test Chris attached shows log3 kill in 5 mins. How then, does the Vetkleen label, and all marketing material, claim a 2 min kill for gram +ve and gram-ve bacteria at the dilutions tested? Is this just assumed? The tests at 2 mins have never been performed.
This is the whole point of actually testing the product itself, not simply making identical claims to F10! F10 has been tested at numerous dilutions, numerous contact times including speed trials, under numerous conditions. Vetkleen has not.
3) In a convoluted sense - I wonder why Chris is bagging F10 - if he's saying F10 doesn't work then using their logic of "Vetkleen is the same as F10" then it doesn't work either. Try and get your brain around that one. The only reason for his mud slinging is to deflect from the fact that they do not have the testing F10 does, and cannot offer the same peace of mind that F10 does.
I await tomorrow mornings installment...
Ciao,
Andrew
Twin_Rivers
Active Member
F10 has spent years in the market, building a reputation, building a loyal clientelle VetKleen is relatively new product yet to prove itself in the market. It is easy to get caught up in the hype of new product being sold by an experienced sale person, I have had the same in my own store the fantastic new product that everyone will want when people want what works what they know what works and what they trust.
I personally do not agree with your marketing approach trying to build your own reputation of product that already has spent the time and money to build their reputation, but portraying the product you have stolen as inferior and over priced ???? If your product is a copy of F10 then should you not be praising it?
As for the price, most people with reptiles spend hundreds of dollars a year on looking after, feeding and maintaining an animal, will $20 -$30 + difference to get a product that is proven with a solid reputation is in my opinion well worth it.
Is the registered product that you are compared to F10 or is it one of the other Vet or arigultural disinfectants on the market, I haven't read all the material you have supplied but from what i have read "to a similar registered product" doesn't confirm to me that the comparison is to F10.
Only time will tell weather VetKleen will earn a good reputation that may take months but more than likely years. This will be from getting VetKleen into the market with good honest truthful information that can be supplied from the people who are selling it, in time it will be seen as either a good alternative to F10 or another cheap knock off.
Yes I do sell F10 in my store. I would be more than happy to also stock VetKleen as a alternative and depending on the feedback recieved make my judgement from that and try not to be swayed by the marketing jargon thrown in by the people who will profuit the most from the sale of the product.
This is only my opinion and I am not trying to sway anyones choice of product.
Cheers
Phil
I personally do not agree with your marketing approach trying to build your own reputation of product that already has spent the time and money to build their reputation, but portraying the product you have stolen as inferior and over priced ???? If your product is a copy of F10 then should you not be praising it?
As for the price, most people with reptiles spend hundreds of dollars a year on looking after, feeding and maintaining an animal, will $20 -$30 + difference to get a product that is proven with a solid reputation is in my opinion well worth it.
Is the registered product that you are compared to F10 or is it one of the other Vet or arigultural disinfectants on the market, I haven't read all the material you have supplied but from what i have read "to a similar registered product" doesn't confirm to me that the comparison is to F10.
Only time will tell weather VetKleen will earn a good reputation that may take months but more than likely years. This will be from getting VetKleen into the market with good honest truthful information that can be supplied from the people who are selling it, in time it will be seen as either a good alternative to F10 or another cheap knock off.
Yes I do sell F10 in my store. I would be more than happy to also stock VetKleen as a alternative and depending on the feedback recieved make my judgement from that and try not to be swayed by the marketing jargon thrown in by the people who will profuit the most from the sale of the product.
This is only my opinion and I am not trying to sway anyones choice of product.
Cheers
Phil
Bengals Australia has Vetkleen for $40 for 1Lt and F10 at $85 for 1Lt.
Chris, you've chosen a lousy time to launch a forum based marketing campaign for a new veterinary disinfectant. With some of the recent topics on emerging viral diseases in Australian reptile collections and the hysteria associated with it people will revert to what they know and what they know is established products.
Further to this, people discussing disinfectants in a forum environment are more concerned about viruses in this current environment rather than anything else. Until you have demonstrable test results against viral pathogens I don't think a campaign of "as good as F10" will work on a forum.
I would, however, have to say that the product itself seems fairly solid based on the information you have provided. If I has a smaller collection or mainly had Lizards I would certainly give it some consideration. At the moment though, the price difference for my cleaning needs over 18 months would only be about $60 or $70 and (as has been previously pointed out) this pales against other expenses.
Please develop this product further as it would be great to have more options available to new keepers. It is also good to see more concentrates coming onto the market as I feel this encourages the more liberal use required for any disinfectant to be effective.
Damien
Chris, you've chosen a lousy time to launch a forum based marketing campaign for a new veterinary disinfectant. With some of the recent topics on emerging viral diseases in Australian reptile collections and the hysteria associated with it people will revert to what they know and what they know is established products.
Further to this, people discussing disinfectants in a forum environment are more concerned about viruses in this current environment rather than anything else. Until you have demonstrable test results against viral pathogens I don't think a campaign of "as good as F10" will work on a forum.
I would, however, have to say that the product itself seems fairly solid based on the information you have provided. If I has a smaller collection or mainly had Lizards I would certainly give it some consideration. At the moment though, the price difference for my cleaning needs over 18 months would only be about $60 or $70 and (as has been previously pointed out) this pales against other expenses.
Please develop this product further as it would be great to have more options available to new keepers. It is also good to see more concentrates coming onto the market as I feel this encourages the more liberal use required for any disinfectant to be effective.
Damien
johnnyeggbeater
Not so new Member
Vetkleen
Isn’t it good claim & counter claim, lets stick with the facts.
The spreading false and misleading information about the efficacy of “Vetkleen Veterinary Disinfectant” is a direct and targeted scare campaign aimed at protecting the profits of an imported product. I believe most forum members will see it as it is.
Let me assure you of the following facts:
• The Vetkleen Veterinary Disinfectant formulation was submitted to The Australian Pesticides & Veterinary Medicines Authority (APVMA) as a “Biodegradable, multipurpose disinfectant for all hard surfaces, equipment and air spaces in veterinary clinics and hospitals, boarding kennels and catteries, and animal housing areas”. The preliminary application was completed May 23 2006. The full evaluation, as a Category AG CAT 26 (Pre-morag) was then undertaken, we received notification from the APVMA, that the product was supported on Chemistry & Manufacturing aspects on August 1 2006. The product was approved for use & registered on November 29 2006. APVMA approval No. 59615.
• Vetkleen Veterinary Disinfectant has been tested for efficacy by an independent international testing laboratory to both Australian & International standards & passes these protocols.
• The combination of active constituents in Vetkleen Veterinary Disinfectant, Benzakonium Chloride & Polyhexamethylene Biguanide Hydrochloride, has been independently tested & the efficacy against all listed bacteria, virus’ & fungi has been proven at the dilution rates listed.
The company making Vetkleen Veterinary disinfectant is an Australian owned and operated company that has been making disinfectant products for over 40years.
It is true that one batch of Vetkleen Veterinary disinfectant failed to meet the strict efficacy protocols of the APVMA, this product was voluntarily recalled & Vetkleen had its registration suspended for 12 months, a fact that has never been denied.
The new manufacturing process that we instigated during our forced absence has proven to be successful passing the protocols set out by the APVMA. It was interesting to note the comment re: “old Vetkleen” tested in April 2008. The product was not made then, we were under suspension.
Other comments made re kill time tests, most informed people would know that these tests are standard and both products Vetkleen & F10Sc would have been tested to the same protocols.
The APVMA is a Federal Government body, unless they were sure that the compositions of both products were closely similar Vetkleen would not have been accepted for registration.
No one is saying that F10Sc doesn’t work, we just point to the fact that it failed to pass a very basic bacterial efficacy test where as Vetkleen passed.
I believe this discussion should be about choice, a clear choice of an expensive overseas product and a lower priced Australian made equivalent and I believe most reasonably minded people will see through the smoke & mirrors scare campaign aimed solely at profit & market share protection and opt for the Aussie company.
Vetkleen is here to stay and is available for $40 per 1L concentrate bottle plus postage.
Andrew, this debate is over. Let the public decide now, nothing further is needed to be said.
Isn’t it good claim & counter claim, lets stick with the facts.
The spreading false and misleading information about the efficacy of “Vetkleen Veterinary Disinfectant” is a direct and targeted scare campaign aimed at protecting the profits of an imported product. I believe most forum members will see it as it is.
Let me assure you of the following facts:
• The Vetkleen Veterinary Disinfectant formulation was submitted to The Australian Pesticides & Veterinary Medicines Authority (APVMA) as a “Biodegradable, multipurpose disinfectant for all hard surfaces, equipment and air spaces in veterinary clinics and hospitals, boarding kennels and catteries, and animal housing areas”. The preliminary application was completed May 23 2006. The full evaluation, as a Category AG CAT 26 (Pre-morag) was then undertaken, we received notification from the APVMA, that the product was supported on Chemistry & Manufacturing aspects on August 1 2006. The product was approved for use & registered on November 29 2006. APVMA approval No. 59615.
• Vetkleen Veterinary Disinfectant has been tested for efficacy by an independent international testing laboratory to both Australian & International standards & passes these protocols.
• The combination of active constituents in Vetkleen Veterinary Disinfectant, Benzakonium Chloride & Polyhexamethylene Biguanide Hydrochloride, has been independently tested & the efficacy against all listed bacteria, virus’ & fungi has been proven at the dilution rates listed.
The company making Vetkleen Veterinary disinfectant is an Australian owned and operated company that has been making disinfectant products for over 40years.
It is true that one batch of Vetkleen Veterinary disinfectant failed to meet the strict efficacy protocols of the APVMA, this product was voluntarily recalled & Vetkleen had its registration suspended for 12 months, a fact that has never been denied.
The new manufacturing process that we instigated during our forced absence has proven to be successful passing the protocols set out by the APVMA. It was interesting to note the comment re: “old Vetkleen” tested in April 2008. The product was not made then, we were under suspension.
Other comments made re kill time tests, most informed people would know that these tests are standard and both products Vetkleen & F10Sc would have been tested to the same protocols.
The APVMA is a Federal Government body, unless they were sure that the compositions of both products were closely similar Vetkleen would not have been accepted for registration.
No one is saying that F10Sc doesn’t work, we just point to the fact that it failed to pass a very basic bacterial efficacy test where as Vetkleen passed.
I believe this discussion should be about choice, a clear choice of an expensive overseas product and a lower priced Australian made equivalent and I believe most reasonably minded people will see through the smoke & mirrors scare campaign aimed solely at profit & market share protection and opt for the Aussie company.
Vetkleen is here to stay and is available for $40 per 1L concentrate bottle plus postage.
Andrew, this debate is over. Let the public decide now, nothing further is needed to be said.
snakehandler
Very Well-Known Member
What very basic test did F10SC fail and when? I understood that it was VETKLEEN that failed the testing?
The reason that other people are asking questions is that we know the product F10, it may be made voerseas, but until you can provide enough data to convince people that the Australian made product is as effective why would I risk cleaning with anything else.
I have been following this thread since the beginning, your opening statement is F10vs VETKLEEN, you started the debate about this product and have as yet failed to demonstrate clearly to th general public why we should change, price is not the only thing when it comes to keeping your animals safe, most people will pay more for a product that has a proven track record.
Again I ask....what large institutions or government agencies have started used VETKLEEN in place of F10?
The reason that other people are asking questions is that we know the product F10, it may be made voerseas, but until you can provide enough data to convince people that the Australian made product is as effective why would I risk cleaning with anything else.
I have been following this thread since the beginning, your opening statement is F10vs VETKLEEN, you started the debate about this product and have as yet failed to demonstrate clearly to th general public why we should change, price is not the only thing when it comes to keeping your animals safe, most people will pay more for a product that has a proven track record.
Again I ask....what large institutions or government agencies have started used VETKLEEN in place of F10?
Jonno from ERD
Very Well-Known Member
A very simple question - has Vetkleen every been tested against viral pathogens (such as parvovirus)?
ChemicalEssentials
Not so new Member
G'day all,
Chris if you start a debate you can't end it without comment from the other party. You have to grant a right of reply. But fear not, while I could pick apart your so called facts, I choose not to bother. I'm happy to let people make up their own minds. I do agree its about choice, and if you've actually read what the forum members are saying, you'll see they are asking the same thing I have been for the last week, something you cannot provide - where is the proof? That's what it boils down to.
Cheers to all and thanks for your patience in this thread...
Andrew Chalmers
Chris if you start a debate you can't end it without comment from the other party. You have to grant a right of reply. But fear not, while I could pick apart your so called facts, I choose not to bother. I'm happy to let people make up their own minds. I do agree its about choice, and if you've actually read what the forum members are saying, you'll see they are asking the same thing I have been for the last week, something you cannot provide - where is the proof? That's what it boils down to.
Cheers to all and thanks for your patience in this thread...
Andrew Chalmers
Wild~Touch
Very Well-Known Member
IMHO both products may be the same base price ??
What gets up my nose is the EXTRA we Aussies pay for anything coming from overseas...freight,handling,customs, duty and such
I don't use either product so I am open minded on the actual products themselves. Paying more is not necessarily buying you a superior product
Cheers
Sandee
What gets up my nose is the EXTRA we Aussies pay for anything coming from overseas...freight,handling,customs, duty and such
I don't use either product so I am open minded on the actual products themselves. Paying more is not necessarily buying you a superior product
Cheers
Sandee
largeheaded1
Well-Known Member
I have a product thats better than F10 and CHEAPER than Vetkleen!
I win
I win
Jonno from ERD
Very Well-Known Member
A product better than F10...? I'd like to see that
snakehandler
Very Well-Known Member
It is shown in the test results that you have only tested against:
Staphylococcus aureus
Pseudomonas aeruginosa
Escherichia coli
Contact time 5 minutes and:
Pseudomonas aeruginosa
Staphylococcus aureus
Contact time 5 minutes, what about the other virus's etc that are listed on the F10 testing and product?
Im sorry but what you have given to us only shows that it is a basic cleaner, not on the same playing field as F10, if you can give me some proof that it is as good as F10 you might have a chance at getting people to change, until then, its just another copy, and as with most copies, cannot live up to the original!
Staphylococcus aureus
Pseudomonas aeruginosa
Escherichia coli
Contact time 5 minutes and:
Pseudomonas aeruginosa
Staphylococcus aureus
Contact time 5 minutes, what about the other virus's etc that are listed on the F10 testing and product?
Im sorry but what you have given to us only shows that it is a basic cleaner, not on the same playing field as F10, if you can give me some proof that it is as good as F10 you might have a chance at getting people to change, until then, its just another copy, and as with most copies, cannot live up to the original!
ChemicalEssentials
Not so new Member
Vetkleen suspension
G'day all
Its a while since this debate, but thought you all should know that Vetkleen has, as of yesterday, again had its APVMA registration suspended for the reason "Lack of efficacy against label pathogens". You can see the link to the APVMA gazetted suspension notice here http://www.apvma.gov.au/publications/gazette/2010/08/gazette_2010-04-27_page_16.pdf
This just proves what we have been saying all along - F10 is fully tested and you know what you're buying and what the product will do. So called "F10 copy" products are not the same and don't have the history of R&D, laboratory testing and field trials to be able to make the same claims.
Anyway, hope this is of use to some of you, please feel free to contact me if you have any queries.
Cheers,
Andrew Chalmers
Chemical Essentials Pty Ltd
G'day all
Its a while since this debate, but thought you all should know that Vetkleen has, as of yesterday, again had its APVMA registration suspended for the reason "Lack of efficacy against label pathogens". You can see the link to the APVMA gazetted suspension notice here http://www.apvma.gov.au/publications/gazette/2010/08/gazette_2010-04-27_page_16.pdf
This just proves what we have been saying all along - F10 is fully tested and you know what you're buying and what the product will do. So called "F10 copy" products are not the same and don't have the history of R&D, laboratory testing and field trials to be able to make the same claims.
Anyway, hope this is of use to some of you, please feel free to contact me if you have any queries.
Cheers,
Andrew Chalmers
Chemical Essentials Pty Ltd
snakehandler
Very Well-Known Member
We only use F10, and until people can show evidence that there is a better product, I would rather spend the money and make sure I have quality.
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