I agree with this, + all of the other replies. Posting an answer is easy, but no-one hears the voice inflections of "I hope it works as well for you". Answers are suggestions tried that have worked for you, but may not work in every situation. Every pet is different, as is every owner & enclosure & surroundings. Helpful versus know-it-all is a fine line I guess.
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I agree with this, + all of the other replies. Posting an answer is easy, but no-one hears the voice inflections of "I hope it works as well for you". Answers are suggestions tried that have worked for you, but may not work in every situation. Every pet is different, as is every owner & enclosure & surroundings. Helpful versus know-it-all is a fine line I guess.
Times certainly have changed. I remember when people laughed at me for paying $50 for six captive bred Keelbacks, and when most elapids were given away rather than sold, when it was hard to find someone willing to take small elapids for free, the same species people would now stab their grandmothers to get their hands on. Not long before I came into the scene, it was rare that anyone would want to breed snakes, and if they accidentally got eggs they'd not be incubated, because otherwise you'd have to find a home for the babies. I still like the old article where a few eggs of an Olive Python were incubated out of novetly and only most of the clutch disposed of, rather than the whole lot; it shows how much things have changed.
The way things are done, the birth of an industry which was spawned by the new hobby (which is an entirely different and separate thing from the old hobby), the whole mentality, the demographic of the people, their reasons for keeping, their concept of what reptiles are, it has all changed. You used to keep snakes because you loved snakes, and you knew everyone would think you were mad. Now people think it's cool, and even those who still say you're mad say it very differently from the way they used to.
Interestingly though, I remember many people back in the day saying they wished snake keeping was more accepted. We still see many people desperate to promote the hobby/industry, and get as many snakes into as many homes as possible. Some of us weren't too keen to see that happen, but most were, and now their dream has become a reality, a reality they complain about :lol: (I'm not talking about you, langy, don't get me wrong). Be careful what you wish for! Sometimes you don't realise what you have until it's gone.
People used to get into reptiles because they loved reptiles, completely independently of anyone else, completely in spite of the reaction everyone gave them. The old school herp learned to handle snakes at a young age, out by themselves in the local bushland, catching whatever the local snakes were. These days the thought of an unsupervised, bare-footed 12 year old catching an Eastern Brown conjurs responses of "Oh my god! The parents should be punished for allowing it!", but back in the day, that was the way it happened. I'm glad to be just old enough to have taught myself in that way, rather than growing up in the new culture.
When things started to change around 8-10 years ago (who remembers 2002 when the first albino pythons were advertised and many of us speculated that they'd never be popular? :LOL: What a song you could have bought them for at the time!), and when they really changed dramatically during 2004, I wasn't terribly happy about it, but after a further year or two I just accepted the direction things were going in. There are some things you just can't fight. The thing which most destroyed the hobby's culture was money. Money brings out the worst in people, and we've seen that in a lot of the older herps. Love and passion for the snakes has been thrown away by many in persuit of the dollar.
On the plus side of the brave new world of herpetoculture, the general community's feelings towards snakes has increased massively. The amount of information which exists is much greater, and, well... okay, I'm out! :lol:
So where to from here? I remember thinking that natural snakes would always be the most popular, because back in the day, people liked that sort of thing (remember when if you hatched something with the 'wrong' colour or pattern you'd have to give it away or sell it cheaply, because it didn't look right? :lol: The opportunities we missed! :lol: ). What I didn't expect was about 50 times more people coming into the scene, virtually all of them with a completely different reason for wanting to keep snakes. My prediction is that next, everyone will be in love with Carpet and to a lesser extent Antaresia morphs above everything else. We'll see the continuation of hybrids falsely being sold as pure to an increasingly greater extent, until at some point people will stop bothering to put the fake labels on, and people will stop caring. I've been wrong before and I may be wrong about that, but, I guarantee that down the track, people will bicker, argue, lie, complain, and talk about how good things used to be!
The way things are done, the birth of an industry which was spawned by the new hobby (which is an entirely different and separate thing from the old hobby), the whole mentality, the demographic of the people, their reasons for keeping, their concept of what reptiles are, it has all changed. You used to keep snakes because you loved snakes, and you knew everyone would think you were mad. Now people think it's cool, and even those who still say you're mad say it very differently from the way they used to.
Interestingly though, I remember many people back in the day saying they wished snake keeping was more accepted. We still see many people desperate to promote the hobby/industry, and get as many snakes into as many homes as possible. Some of us weren't too keen to see that happen, but most were, and now their dream has become a reality, a reality they complain about :lol: (I'm not talking about you, langy, don't get me wrong). Be careful what you wish for! Sometimes you don't realise what you have until it's gone.
People used to get into reptiles because they loved reptiles, completely independently of anyone else, completely in spite of the reaction everyone gave them. The old school herp learned to handle snakes at a young age, out by themselves in the local bushland, catching whatever the local snakes were. These days the thought of an unsupervised, bare-footed 12 year old catching an Eastern Brown conjurs responses of "Oh my god! The parents should be punished for allowing it!", but back in the day, that was the way it happened. I'm glad to be just old enough to have taught myself in that way, rather than growing up in the new culture.
When things started to change around 8-10 years ago (who remembers 2002 when the first albino pythons were advertised and many of us speculated that they'd never be popular? :LOL: What a song you could have bought them for at the time!), and when they really changed dramatically during 2004, I wasn't terribly happy about it, but after a further year or two I just accepted the direction things were going in. There are some things you just can't fight. The thing which most destroyed the hobby's culture was money. Money brings out the worst in people, and we've seen that in a lot of the older herps. Love and passion for the snakes has been thrown away by many in persuit of the dollar.
On the plus side of the brave new world of herpetoculture, the general community's feelings towards snakes has increased massively. The amount of information which exists is much greater, and, well... okay, I'm out! :lol:
So where to from here? I remember thinking that natural snakes would always be the most popular, because back in the day, people liked that sort of thing (remember when if you hatched something with the 'wrong' colour or pattern you'd have to give it away or sell it cheaply, because it didn't look right? :lol: The opportunities we missed! :lol: ). What I didn't expect was about 50 times more people coming into the scene, virtually all of them with a completely different reason for wanting to keep snakes. My prediction is that next, everyone will be in love with Carpet and to a lesser extent Antaresia morphs above everything else. We'll see the continuation of hybrids falsely being sold as pure to an increasingly greater extent, until at some point people will stop bothering to put the fake labels on, and people will stop caring. I've been wrong before and I may be wrong about that, but, I guarantee that down the track, people will bicker, argue, lie, complain, and talk about how good things used to be!
P
-Peter
Guest
I hef many sneks, they was being dedded lots but now they are dedded a lot not. I hef lernd many lots in the year on june this one.
but on the other side of the coin I can recall young John Duetcher and his stick insects, little Jonno Lucas and his rescue carpet and more. Brendan Schembri, Tom Parkin, Zac, Nathan, Alex and more. I dont give a tinkers what you think of these people. They are todays experts and I predict tomorrows. Some of the know it alls coming through now will join them. They will make mistakes, misrepresent themselves and self agrandise sometimes but in the end I think they will work out well. For themselves and the hobby/industry.
Because they are in it because the cant not be.
Lots of people rub each other up the wrong way and lots of people make mistakes. Time sorts them out.
but on the other side of the coin I can recall young John Duetcher and his stick insects, little Jonno Lucas and his rescue carpet and more. Brendan Schembri, Tom Parkin, Zac, Nathan, Alex and more. I dont give a tinkers what you think of these people. They are todays experts and I predict tomorrows. Some of the know it alls coming through now will join them. They will make mistakes, misrepresent themselves and self agrandise sometimes but in the end I think they will work out well. For themselves and the hobby/industry.
Because they are in it because the cant not be.
Lots of people rub each other up the wrong way and lots of people make mistakes. Time sorts them out.
Unfortunately many new keepers have been spoilt with the wealth of information that is available. This results in overconfidence in their knowledge and bad advice from misread sources.
I would take a different approach and state to all new keepers (I include myself in this mould) to critically analyse all new information and advice you receive. If it doesn't make sense, then it's either incorrect or you need further research before application. Understand the differences in value between forums, popular magazines, peer reviewed publications and text books and use these to your advantage by avoiding the mistakes made by those that came before you.
Finally, it is far more important to understand WHY you do something rather than HOW to do it. I think we've all seen at least one horror story that has arisen from blind application of advice.
Im still very new , but the availability of information is good though. If people can get access to good imformation alot easier, so hopfully that would be better when you need help or find anything out.
gday..have probaby made too many posts to this site...but is'nt it to share information and knowledge? ...Sorry i've only kept reps for 12 years and yes I know F'A ~ dont try and title myself as an 'expert' ..we know there are only a certain few who can call themselves that!
Yes pet shops all over are now selling various herps...OMG..anyone would think it was a commercial business :*
get over yourselves if something works share it, it somone needs help or advise - give it, if your a tight assed old country music farmer deal with it....
Yes pet shops all over are now selling various herps...OMG..anyone would think it was a commercial business :*
get over yourselves if something works share it, it somone needs help or advise - give it, if your a tight assed old country music farmer deal with it....
Emmalicious
Well-Known Member
Nobody is a know it all. I always come on here to learn more and more about reptiles. I'm always still learning. But the people who keep snakes and claim to know all, I really dislike. I am constantly criticised by this one person who likes to claim they know it all LOL!
I really understand where you are coming from!
I cannot believe some people keep snakes but are too scared to touch them :S
I really understand where you are coming from!
I cannot believe some people keep snakes but are too scared to touch them :S
Too many people keeping herps for the wrong reasons IMO to make money ,
look kool ,"aww i have a snake, people wont know its not venomous , im a hectic one".
too many people with the wrong attitude.
im so sick of people that have no idea that think ther snakes are tame ,
talk to it lol treat it like it isn't a wild unpredictable animal.
iv seen so many pics of kids with ther antersia draped over ther face , imagine if it decided to turn and bite the kids eye ,Peirce ther eye lid into ther eye.
people on here have to start taking herps seriously imo
Don't get me started on some peoples opinions of hybrids and jags/nice things :lol:
jmo
" Most people don't care about the hobby only care what they can get from the hobby "
look kool ,"aww i have a snake, people wont know its not venomous , im a hectic one".
too many people with the wrong attitude.im so sick of people that have no idea that think ther snakes are tame ,
talk to it lol treat it like it isn't a wild unpredictable animal.
iv seen so many pics of kids with ther antersia draped over ther face , imagine if it decided to turn and bite the kids eye ,Peirce ther eye lid into ther eye.
people on here have to start taking herps seriously imo
Don't get me started on some peoples opinions of hybrids and jags/nice things :lol:
jmo
" Most people don't care about the hobby only care what they can get from the hobby "
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Jonno from ERD
Very Well-Known Member
What's wrong with making money out of keeping reptiles? I know several people that maintain large python collections simply for the return they receive from the sale of hatchlings. These animals are looked after better than any other collection I have seen...
And I regularly drape all sorts of pythons around kids necks for photo opportunities...I'd say upwards of 5000 people over the last 3 years and never had an accident yet.
Selene
Not so new Member
I've had my darlin for 6 months now and have never claimed to be an expert and she is far from being a posing point.
I came to this site to hopefully further my knowledge and meet like minded people but in all honesty I very rarely come here because of the know alls who instantly condemn others advice and ideas because 'they're the experts'. And I'm sorry to say but the amount of people who speak about reptiles like they are trophies or objects is just over whelming. They are still living creatures and are not an accessory by no means.
Good on you for posting this I think.
I came to this site to hopefully further my knowledge and meet like minded people but in all honesty I very rarely come here because of the know alls who instantly condemn others advice and ideas because 'they're the experts'. And I'm sorry to say but the amount of people who speak about reptiles like they are trophies or objects is just over whelming. They are still living creatures and are not an accessory by no means.
Good on you for posting this I think.
JasonL
Almost Legendary
Your a bad man Jonno, shame on you :lol:
I'm 29 and have been keeping reps for just over 3 years now. Not a long time, but even i've noticed how things have changed. What I don't know about herps could fill a football stadium. What I do know has been gained through experience. I've done a lot of reading, but if someone's a fan of NASCAR driving & reads every book on it, doesn't make them a NASCAR driver.
There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Any fool can read a book and become knowledgable. Wisdom means that you've actually done it or experienced it, and it's worlds apart from knowledge. A lot of members would do good to consider this, before they reply to the next help topic. Personally, i'm more of a reader of APS than a contributor; but if I have experienced a particular issue that someone needs help on, then i'll give my advice.
Those that think pythons are cool will either lose interest in them, or will just keep one or 2 to brag to their mates. Personally it doesn't sit well with me - usually it's these type of people that don't take the time to educate themselves on their shiny brand new toy (sorry - i mean python), and they don't look after them properly. I shudder at some of the idiotic things i've seen these people do, through lack of knowledge/caring.
At the end of the day, show pony's are everywhere - moreso in fields such as herping because of the 'wow' factor - they're a part of life, and I put them in the same category as the guy at my work, who bought a motorbike EXACTLY like another guy at my work. They look so cool in their matching outfits, riding their matching bikes. Haha!
I don't look forward to the day that you can log onto one of 5,000 herp sites and buy an albino for $30. The USA sickens me in this way - much the same as when I walk into a petstore, and the 16 year old petstore employee with pink dye in her hair will tell me how much that puppy particularly likes me, just to get a sale. Nevermind that I live in an apartment, and a cattle dog probably isn't very suitable.
I agree with those that have said the internet has done a lot of good , but it has also given many a 'diploma' in herping. I think the internet has caused herping to grow at an unnatural and astonishing rate - as if it were on steriods. I guess it's a trade off . I'd like to think that those who have jumped onboard the herping wagon are all fanscinated by reptiles, but there are those who like the wow factor, and the thought of breeding 100000's of albino's and getting rich.
The future of herping isn't some uncontrollable train heading for disaster - largely it's driven by big & smalltime breeders, those old-school keepers to keep us young'ins in line, and sites such as APS. Know-it-alls are the result of the availability of information on the net - and they aren't restricted to herping.
Now i'm off to Bathurst (really). I may even drive around the track and pretend i'm a NASCAR driver.
cheers,
Lockie.
There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Any fool can read a book and become knowledgable. Wisdom means that you've actually done it or experienced it, and it's worlds apart from knowledge. A lot of members would do good to consider this, before they reply to the next help topic. Personally, i'm more of a reader of APS than a contributor; but if I have experienced a particular issue that someone needs help on, then i'll give my advice.
Those that think pythons are cool will either lose interest in them, or will just keep one or 2 to brag to their mates. Personally it doesn't sit well with me - usually it's these type of people that don't take the time to educate themselves on their shiny brand new toy (sorry - i mean python), and they don't look after them properly. I shudder at some of the idiotic things i've seen these people do, through lack of knowledge/caring.
At the end of the day, show pony's are everywhere - moreso in fields such as herping because of the 'wow' factor - they're a part of life, and I put them in the same category as the guy at my work, who bought a motorbike EXACTLY like another guy at my work. They look so cool in their matching outfits, riding their matching bikes. Haha!
I don't look forward to the day that you can log onto one of 5,000 herp sites and buy an albino for $30. The USA sickens me in this way - much the same as when I walk into a petstore, and the 16 year old petstore employee with pink dye in her hair will tell me how much that puppy particularly likes me, just to get a sale. Nevermind that I live in an apartment, and a cattle dog probably isn't very suitable.
I agree with those that have said the internet has done a lot of good , but it has also given many a 'diploma' in herping. I think the internet has caused herping to grow at an unnatural and astonishing rate - as if it were on steriods. I guess it's a trade off . I'd like to think that those who have jumped onboard the herping wagon are all fanscinated by reptiles, but there are those who like the wow factor, and the thought of breeding 100000's of albino's and getting rich.
The future of herping isn't some uncontrollable train heading for disaster - largely it's driven by big & smalltime breeders, those old-school keepers to keep us young'ins in line, and sites such as APS. Know-it-alls are the result of the availability of information on the net - and they aren't restricted to herping.
Now i'm off to Bathurst (really). I may even drive around the track and pretend i'm a NASCAR driver.
cheers,
Lockie.
I don't think there's anything wrong with making money from reptiles, I congratulate anyone who does as long as they do it ethically, and there are many examples. Unfortunately there are also many examples of money turning people bad. Regardless of ethics, I think what bothers the old timers about the state of the new scene is the shift in focus from snakes being wild animals which are fascinating, to cuddly pets which are fun. The general feel of reptile meetings in the 90s was very different from what we have today.
To be honest, I think there is also resentment from a lot of them, because they miss the days when having a snake made you a local celebrity, and caused a massive reaction and stir when anyone found out. Everyone thought they were amazing, doing something no one else could, but now they're no more impressive than half the local children who bought a few snakes from the pet shop down the street. This is just the way things work, the next generation will always overtake you.
There is also a bit of resentment from those who were active during the pioneering stages of herpetology (I'm only old enough to have seen a small amount of this towards the end of what I'd consider that time, although in a different respect we're in another pioneering period now). The ones who worked hard to learn, the ones who were struggling to make it work when no information was available, when it was considered a big acheivement even to breed Children's Pythons, lizards were considered extremely difficult to breed, heck, Steve Irwin under oath in court said small monitors were literally impossible to breed in captivity (seems absurd now!) and then to be overtaken by kids who are spoonfed, at a time when keeping and breeding reptiles has become easy. Again, that's just the way it is, the next generation will always overtake you.
As for putting 'wild' snakes on kids, 'tame/domestic' dogs and cats bite people too
You won't be waiting long! That's exactly the direction we're heading in, in fact, we're screaming towards it at an alarming pace. I was slightly surprised to see albino snakes for less than $5 each in the USA a couple of years ago. In Australia we're not far off the time when we'll first start seeing pythons selling for nominal money, and it won't be too long before a basic albino Antaresia is going to cost less than an average cage. Of course, for a few years before that hatchlings will be selling for around their weight in gold.
abbott75
Very Well-Known Member
More like saffron! :lol:
I keep reptiles because I love them. I was the weirdo in school who picked up snakes and handled spiders.
I'm older now, but I still love reptiles. I am also passionate about captive breeding, so the obvious direction for me to go down is breeding reptiles. And there is no denying it makes money. But when I begin to think of the money I've spent keeping animals over the years, I think I'm entitled to make a bit back.
Anybody who has a problem with others making money from their hobby really need to get over them selves.
JasonL
Almost Legendary
I breed reptile to make money, just to pay the wife off to let me keep them....like I get to see any of it!! lol... I think the future of making decent money may somewhat be under a cloud atm...interesting to see who sticks with it and who drops out..... I really couldn't care less where the so called "hobby" is headed, my interests are solely on the preservation of wild animals and their habitat, I keep herps to learn and understand them fully, you truely can't understand what the animal is without keeping and breeding it for several years.
Wild~Touch
Very Well-Known Member
I like to think that the animals I breed will go to basically well informed new keepers that are prepared to look and learn from different sources of "reptile wisdom" and nothing beats mates at the local Herp.society where we meet and gather/exchange all sorts of stuff we have expereinced. Books are good and the internet is invaluable
Cheers
Sandee
and the internet is invaluableCheers
Sandee
Beano05
Active Member
As I read everyones posts here it got me thinking about pets in general. There are to many animals being dumped or given to the RSPCA because of the cool pet factor has warn off. Maybe there needs to be a licencing system for all animals, and owners have the basic knowledge prior to purchase. an animal enclosure inspection before anyone can buy or obtain an animal. Cats to be kept in avery type setups (thats how my cat is kept). Secured yards or pens for dogs. Proper tanks and heating etc for herps. Regular mandatory check ups maybe things like that to ensure that animals are being looked after.
I know this would a massive thing to do but im just throwing an idea out there. they can do it for cars why not animals.
This forum is a great place to learn and get tips and advice. If you post a question there are usualy a few responses that will give you the answer you need. If the responses are not unanimous then obviously you need to research other avenues or see a vet/ zoo keeper maybe
As fars as making money from herps or pets in general, we all are buying them because we love them so we have to get them from somewhere, and competiton helps keep the prices reasonable.
There are lots of ways to learn about Reptiles, lets use them all I say!
I know this would a massive thing to do but im just throwing an idea out there. they can do it for cars why not animals.
This forum is a great place to learn and get tips and advice. If you post a question there are usualy a few responses that will give you the answer you need. If the responses are not unanimous then obviously you need to research other avenues or see a vet/ zoo keeper maybe
As fars as making money from herps or pets in general, we all are buying them because we love them so we have to get them from somewhere, and competiton helps keep the prices reasonable.
There are lots of ways to learn about Reptiles, lets use them all I say!
Some People get into herps as a way to make money.
experienced keepers making money on the side is a bit different and i didn't say i was against that , i ment newbies coming into the hobby with the intention of makin money for that reason only.
iv herd of a big olive python they thought was 100% tame and alot of people wer around and it bit someone , i think at the end of the day they are still a wild animal.
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