Bluey help - MBD

[JasonL]

Ok then...
If I am so ignorant... explain to me what heating has to do with it...

I could go on for pages and pages on the issue as it's highly complex and I don't have all the answers but after keeping around 50 plus species of reptiles and amphibians, inc, various species of agamids, geckoes, skinks, monitors, turtles, frogs and snakes and breeding quite a few thousand animals, and spending the last 6 odd years raising mass amounts of various animals with and without UV, I can tell you without any doubt, that heating plays a huge part in calcium levels of reptiles and amphibians. And UV, although surely plays some part in helping the situation is far too heavily pushed (largely by manufactures and sellers of the products) as a total reason for calcium issues. Is it such a suprise that heat causes such issues, reptiles being cold blooded need it to survive, their whole system is designed around being heated, and it's something as keepers we often tend to overlook, largely due to lack of knowledge of a particular species and it habits and / or lack of knowledge of inner workings of reptiles themselves.

 

[Andrais]

Hi,
theres a section about MBD on a site called bluetongueskinks.net, really great site, they also have a forum there too looks like MBD to me, i have a eastern bluey with MBD, and that bump looks very similar, but they can vairy.

 

[Lollypop]

Hi, with the heat debate.......Heat is needed by the cold-bloodeds firstly in order to be able to hunt efficiently, & then to be able to digest that food effectively.
The UV comes in to play to enable them to be able to actually absorb the calcium that comes from their food - the heat alone doesn't do this.
Hope that clarifies things

 

[JasonL]

The UV comes in to play to enable them to be able to actually absorb the calcium that comes from their food - the heat alone doesn't do this.
Hope that clarifies things

Heat is the major player though, UV has some effect on all living things, some good, some bad, man made UV is really nothing like natural UV and personally I wouldn't be bothered using it anymore. Any reptile can be raised and bred without UV if you truely understand it's requirements, and any reptile can have metabolic bone or hypocalcemia problems if you don't, poor husbandry is the cause of most problems not that you didn't replace your UV globe at 6 months. As for Bluetongues, they certainly don't need it. Dr Glenn Shea, a highly respected herpetologist, senior lecturer of Veterinary Science at Syd Uni who happened to do a PHD on BT's will tell you they don't need it.

 

[Lollypop]

Hey JasonL, have u got any sites or info on the UV thing, 'cause it seems to be getting a more contentious issue (as well), so would be really interested in getting more knowledge about it. I just know when my first bd got early signs of MBD, I was told exactly what I wrote, from a very knowledgeable herp vet. There was also the reference to the similarity of humans with no sunlight & therefore no UV developing (ricketts) I think it was, which just takes a lot longer to show in humans. So unless I could see some recognised facts, I'd still be a bit dubious. Anything you've got would be great - thanks, Kathy.

 

[JasonL]

Yes Kathy, I understand what I've been saying flys against the standard thoughts of most, and I'm not at all saying that UVB has no use in these reguards, not at all, what I am saying is that UV or lack of, isn't the major cause of calcium issues in captive reptiles, heating far outplays UV in calcium problems. As I said, I could litterally go on for pages on it, showing outcomes of different things I've been working on, I have been thinking of putting it all on paper for one of the mags, though there are a few things I still need to iron out that I'll probably be working on this summer. My main test animals have been Beardies and Geckos, but have been highly interested in anything calcium / reptile related. I think talking about humans that don't go out in sunlight developing calcium issues might be a bit of a push, as humans really havn't been tested under a controlled environment as such, and anyone who doesn't go outside probably isn't really leading a healthy lifestyle and probably has mental and dietry issues as well.

 

[Lollypop]

Hey JasonL - The reference to humans was because of todays society with PS & Nintendo DS & Wii etc - all inside games, they're medically actually beginning to see a recurrence of (Ricketts), which sounds as far fetched as reptiles not needing UV - I'm an avid reader & desirer of knowledge re reptiles (esp. Beardies, being the owner of some) so that's the interest. However, it's not in my nature to read one thing & take it as gospel, I have to have that source illustrated numerous times, by recognised specialists, for me to absorb, digest & make sense of it (most importantly) before I can accept it - that's why I'd be interested in any books or records you could send me so I can form my own opinion. No insult, but I could read what u say in an article, & discredit it if nothing else is put in print or another argument outweighs it, do you know what I mean? Hope you do - Kathy

 

[HerpDoc]

Ok guys here are the facts regarding UV in reptiles:

UV radiation is vitally important in calcium metabolism and homeostatis in a range of reptiles but species variation does exist. In particular, skin exposure to UVB (wavelength 290-320nm) results in conversion of pre-vitamin D into vitamin D3 - which is the active form and is important for facilitating calcium absorption from the gastrointestinal tract. Without vitamin D3 it is IMPOSSIBLE for any animal to absorb calcium from the intestines. While heat does play a role in ensuring reptiles are active enough to capture prey items and digest their food it has absolutely no role in calcium homeostasis.
In addition to endogenous (formed by the body) vit D3 animals can be supplemented with dietary vitamin D3 thus negating their requirement for exposure to UV for its synthesis. Vitamin D3 can be found in a range of tissues of whole prey items, in particular the skin, kidney and livers of vertebrate animals. Therefore ,species that subside primarily on whole vertebrates (mice, rats, rabbits, etc) probably have minimal requirements for UV exposure to meet their vitamin D3 needs. In saying this though I would still recommend UV lights, as full spectrum lighting also emits other wavelengths such as UVA that have been shown to provide other beneficial effects such as appetite stimulation and other psychological effects.
It is true in my opinion that no artifical light matches normal sunlight and almost all species will benefit from exposure to unfiltered sunlight for at least 1 hour per week.
It has also been shown that in some nocturnal species, such as geckos, are able to maximise their photobiosynthesis of vitamin D3 with very minimal light exposure and the provision of UV might be of some benefit in these species.
When feeding insectivorous reptiles prey items should be dusted with a multivitamin power (containing vitamin D3) in addition to calcium powder.

 

[Lollypop]

So Herpdoc, let me try get this straight in my head.......
What that's saying is: you could feed bigger reptiles (adult beardies/snakes etc) mice on a regular basis & say they will still absorb calcium efficiently, minus UV.
(By-the-By, if frozen prey is used, is there any evidence to suggest the D3 is diminished? And how regular is regular?)
Also, if people use a mult-vit powder containing D3 for their smaller reptiles, once again on a regular basis, is it viable that these reptiles then require no UV to also obtain calcium absorption?
Does it also suggest then that given these instances are correct, that it is essentially heat that is the main factor in the reptiles then being able to absorb the already available D3?
Does that make sense, or am I misinterpreting something?

 

[Chimera]

With all do respect JasonL, what on earth are you talking about? Heating has absolutely nothing to do with calcium problems in reptiles - except perhaps that it helps with digesting food that has calcium in it!! It is really important to keep temperatures correct, but it has nothing to do with MBD or NSHP.
Not all MBD related bumps and distortions are reversible, but the bump that I see in the picture definitely is - when given the right treatment...

Hi, with the heat debate.......Heat is needed by the cold-bloodeds firstly in order to be able to hunt efficiently, & then to be able to digest that food effectively.
The UV comes in to play to enable them to be able to actually absorb the calcium that comes from their food - the heat alone doesn't do this.
Hope that clarifies things

As Jason has pointed out there is a SEVER lack of knowledge on calcium metabolism resulting in people thinking it is just about UV light. The relationship between UV light and calcium absorption is based on vitamin D3 which is produced by photoconversion in the skin AS WELL AS a 2 metabolic processes in the liver and kidneys. These metabolic processes will not be effective in animals that are unable to achieve their preferred body temperatures. Further to this, other problems with these organs such as dehydration can result in poor D3 synthesis and therefore poor calcium absorption (although this would have to be chronic to manifest as MBD).

M stands for metabolic, ALL metabolic processes in reptiles are temperature dependant ergo heat more important that UV

 

[HerpDoc]

There is not a severe lack of knowledge on calcium metabolism, in fact we have a very good understanding of the normal physiological pathways involved in calcium homeostasis in a range of species. If vitamin D3 is provided in the diet it does not need to undergo photo-conversion - this is the active form of vitamin D, it is only the dietary precursor, 7-dehydrocholesterol that undergoes photoconversion in the skin and subsequently addition (thermal isomerization - yes requiring some heat but it is minimal, just as most biochemical reactions require heat) of hydroxyl groups in the liver and kidneys. Dehydration is not a major factor in poor calcium absorption but it is true that conditions that effect the kidneys, liver and thyroid may result in inadequate production of vitamin D3 by the body but usually they will also present with a range of other symptoms.
Yes this condition is colloquially known as MBD but this is in fact the name given to a range of syndromes and does not describe the disease we are talking about. A more correct term is probably nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism.
As I mentioned earlier heat is important for normal activity and digestion but without vitamin D3 you can have all the heat on god's green earth and you will still not be able to absorb calcium from the intestines. I think that it is folly to say that either heat or UV are more important than the other because they both contribute to the overall health of a reptile and neither should be neglected.
Lollypop, yes it may be that snakes/monitors eating whole adult vertebrate prey have no requirement for supplemental UV for calcium/vitamin D but they still should be provided with it for other reasons. Dietary supplementation of vitamin D3 can be inaccurate and it has been shown that some species will behaviourally adjust their exposure to UVB depending on their vitamin D3 status. Freezing does not appear to affect vit D3 but research is continuing in this area in reptiles. Beardies should not be feed a diet high in mice as this can predispose to other conditions (they are too high in fats etc). I would never recommend that reptiles obtaining vitamin D3 from dusted insects not be given acccess to UV as dusting is very hit-and-miss and is intended as a supplement only.

 

[JasonL]

Any chance you know the average levels of D3 found in various food items, inc inverts, plants? or roughly the ratio's that various species of reptiles can absorb calcium without D3 at all?

 

[Lollypop]

Any chance you know the average levels of D3 found in various food items, inc inverts, plants? or roughly the ratio's that various species of reptiles can absorb calcium without D3 at all?

That would be great to know!

BTW Oshakoor, how's your bluey going?? We seemto have hijacked your thread:lol:

 

[NotoriouS]

That would be great to know!

BTW Oshakoor, how's your bluey going?? We seemto have hijacked your thread:lol:

Haha.. no it's been an interesting read! I've been getting my younger brother to take out my bluey in the sun for about 10-15 minutes a day (I come home after sunset) and I must say that my giving him regular calcium supplements as well as changing his diet and the sun exposure - his condition is "improving". Improving in the sense that while bump is still visible, it isn't as bad as before. The heating in the enclosure is fine, bumped it up to 35 degrees warm end and is 24 in the cooler end with temps dropping a couple of degrees in the night.

 

[Chimera]

HerpDoc, I think you misunderstood me. Certainly there is a great amount of knowledge in the literature about D3 synthesis and calcium absorption, unfortunately not too many keepers research this topic properly.

It is true that all factors of your husbandry need to be properly considered, the point that I was trying to convey is that the simplistic approach of UVB = Calcium Absorption is incorrect.

 

[JasonL]

Personally, I'd like to see much more research in this area, blood counts done on various animals raised in various ways ect ect.. I think certain aspects of calcium absorbtion still remain unknown. Why isn't there more information on calcium / blood levels on python species?? If I ask.... do pythons need UV or more importantly... does it effect their calcium levels? or say any other species of reptile like Blueys?? I think many things are unknown about the whole issue..... yes, the standard vet textbook response is well known, but in my experience of a keeper / breeder it doesn't answer all the questions.
Chimera, on another forum you mentioned a study on corn snakes, and that UV promoted their D3 count, did it also elevate their calcium levels? or was this not mentioned? Any chance of the link to this study or any other compairable studies you or anyone else knows of, Cheer's.

 

[Chimera]

AVMA - American Journal of Veterinary Research - 69(2):294 - Abstract

This is just the abstract, Mark discussed this study extensively at the North American Veterinary Converence in 2007 and 2009 in presentations on artificial lighting. NAVC offer the MP3's for sale on their website.

There was no measure on the impact this has in calcium absorption, it would certainly be interesting to see a study that shows the correlation of D3 to calcium absorption in snakes.

 

[HerpDoc]

Unfortunately there is not good information on vitamin D3 levels in food items at this stage. No reptiles can absord calcium without vitamin d3, without going into an in-depth discussion on biochemistry is is required for transport of Calcium ions from the intestines into the body. Mark Mitchell has also looked at lighting in red-eared sliders and vit D3 as well. It is important to remember though that Mark was unsure what the results of the corn snake study meant, did it reflect normal D3 synthesis or was it an artifical elevation in D3 levels which potentially has its own deleterious side-effects. There are a lot of papers on this topic, particularly also in panther chameleons, if you do a literature search you should be able to get most of the titles or abstracts.

 

[Lollypop]

You know, after reading back & forth & the contradictions & questions that this discussion raises, & with herping becoming more popular yr by yr, who's doing the research on all the species? (& I'm not imagining for a minute that this is an overnight thing!)
If you guys with so much knowledge - obviously practical & classroom - could get together to study this in-depth, wouldn't us everyday people have a lot better idea of how to look after our herps so they don't get sick from improper (albeit advised) husbandry.
Is this happening that anyone knows of, & if it is, are we a long way off from concrete results yet?
I find this really interesting, & it certainly raises a lot of questions, but it'd be nice to know those answers one day......

 

[JasonL]

Lollypop, more studies are way overdue, but these things take dedicated people, with alot of time and here's the kicker....financial backing.... and thats just to get started.. Many species are small and virtually impossible to draw blood from to measure serum calcium levels. Ideally, many wild animals need bloods done to get an idea of what their natural range of calcium levels are, and without this, controlled studies are only in part useful. My main gripe with the issue is that rarely heating is mentioned in such debates, yet I'm certain that this plays a part in allowing calcium to be used or absorbed into the bloodstream, most probably from the skeleton, which I possibly think acts like a backup system for blood levels during hard times. Each species has a temperature range in which their body operates better at, and when out of this range for periods of time, this effects the animals metabolic rate, which imo can have effects on calcium levels especially for those animals that have a naturally fast metabolic rate like agamids and geckos, also, the animals activity levels whether due to breeding and / or stress will have some effects by raising the metabolic rate. Many gecko species are highly effected by calcium issues, yet they are nocturnal as are some snakes. Gecko eggs often have a poor hatch rate if kept too cold or hot. I had alot of trouble getting Box Patterned Gecko eggs to hatch for many years, and found by keeping the adults cooler produced a much better hatch rate. Oedura species will lay eggs every 20 days if heated at high temps day and night and eventually the females suffer MBD problems (usually mostly in their tails) and few of the eggs will hatch, but kept too cool and the gravid females drop dead with muscle tremors running through their legs and digits in a classic hypocalcemia way, heat up hot during the day and cold at night and you find a happy medium and alls good.