'Mossman pygmy stimos' Pt2

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Based on what I have just seen on Google Earth (and a few other pictures of the area on the web), there appears to be a graduated sclerophyll forest boundary between two very different habitats that is about 16km from both Mossman and the peak of Mt Carbine on a straight line between them. On the Mt Carbine side, the habitat appears to be savannah and on the Mossman side, it appears to be rainforest (but I won't know that until early September when I will visit the area for the first time.) Between the savannah and the thick forest (near the half-way point between Mt Carbine and Mossman) the forest appears to thin out gradually to savannah.

So, to suggest an answer to Slacker's question, if the python was found in the savannah habitat, it would be consistent to describe it as "Mt Carbine locale" and if it was found in the rainforest habitat, it would be consistent to describe it as "Mossman locale", since the savannah is closer to Mt Carbine and the rainforest is closer to Mossman.
distinct. The search area, for anyone that was interested, would still be several hundreds of square kilometres in area.

My guess is that there are at least 4 to 6 macro-habitats ( 'very different whole lots of nothing', rather than 'a whole lot of nothing', if you like) between Mossman and Mt Carbine - urban, cane farms, rainforest, wet sclerophyll forest (maybe), dry sclerophyll forest (maybe) and sclerophyll savannah.

I think I know the place you're talking about, I was just looking at it myself. For the record, I meant "a whole lot of nothing" in the way of named locations that's in the direct line between the two locations in question.
 
For the record, I meant "a whole lot of nothing" in the way of named locations that's in the direct line between the two locations in question.

I understand. Queensland does "a whole lot of nothing" really well! :) But a lot of the "somethings" in Queensland are incredible!
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Come on guys. Andy has clearly stated how he feels about the topic. As have others. Maybe we need to invaite barack obama to have some beers so we can agree to disagree.
 
I have seen one of those "pygmy stimmies" in Sydney and had to lough.
A/ you don't find A. stimsoni at Mossman nor at Mt. Carbine, so the name is crap to start with.
B/ the fact that we have never heard of such creature before, means that it was either collected from the wild recently (illegally)
or someone achieved this dwarf form by selective breeding and is laughing all the way to the bank.
C/ It has not been formally described as a species or subspecies or even as a locality variant.
So, what is this "pygmy stimmie"?
 
Warerat
Fact: heaps of old time experienced herpers have known about these tiny pythons for many many years. I can tell you also that all of my old time herp mates were never really taken by them as we all considered the cream Stimson that we all desired to be the W.A specimens and Barrow creek (N.T ) specimens. This is not to say that the odd person back then didn't grab a few here and there from Mt Carbine ( on their way to Cook Town chasing blonde Macs usually ) and I do know a few that did, and then go on to breed them. It is nice to see however these critters re exposed to the hobby but I still think that other area forms are far more attractive but that is simply my personal taste.
Good luck to the people with genuine honest intentions breeding these and making them available to those that really appreciate them.

Regards Dave
 
I have seen one of those "pygmy stimmies" in Sydney and had to lough.
A/ you don't find A. stimsoni at Mossman nor at Mt. Carbine, so the name is crap to start with.
B/ the fact that we have never heard of such creature before, means that it was either collected from the wild recently (illegally)
or someone achieved this dwarf form by selective breeding and is laughing all the way to the bank.
C/ It has not been formally described as a species or subspecies or even as a locality variant.
So, what is this "pygmy stimmie"?


i agree Hydromys. i am yet to be persuaded that it is even has provenance, and i could not be convinced that it is found at or near Mossman nor Mt Carbine. If it was found between them, why isn't it called a Julatten or Mt Molloy. or are we to believe that it wasn't even collected off the road but in the middle of wilderness. when a ridiculous story surrounds the locality, the whole issue sounds like a scam to me. good luck to those who think they are buying something special. how many museum specimens are there? (rhetorical) just old time herpers that used to call all Antaresia "childrens pythons" to rely on their existence. i'm open to be persuaded, but at present it sounds like a con. too bad the con gets perpetuated when someone who is duped, re-sells them in good faith.
 
Dave, I take your point and sentiment. I am one of those "old-time herpers" who used to see and collect those things between Mt. Molloy and Mt. Carbine. Many of us (incl. myself) thought they were just immature macs (childrens in those days). No one bred them then, so what if they were just immature macs?

Chilli, I don't want to sound too retro but I don't support the "splitters" and I am yet to be convinced that A. maculosa, A. Stimsoni and A. childreni deserve specific status. Herpetologically speaking (as oppose to hobby reptile keepers), The three species have the same scalation, marginal differences in colour and pattern and no DNA work has been done so far to separate them genetically. There are no geographical barriers between their respective populations and they share more or less the same ecological traits. May I propose that they just MIGHT be a single species that goes from dark to light from east to west? Patric Cooper told me he saw A. maculosa that he couldn't distinguish from stimsoni near Cooktown. I have the same problem when looking at the specimens from just east of Georgetown. By the way, the QM has only ONE vaucher specimen of A. stimsoni.
IMO, taxonomists are strange people, professionally that is, and many reptile hobbyists are not far behind mentally. Isn't it all about "I have got something different to all others"?
 
Waterrat
The whole over split species scenario does indeed contradict Darwin’s basic bench mark that validated (to him at least) a genuine species (fertile offspring from different looking animals to simply mean that the parents are the same species). And old friend Dr Alan Thorn has always claimed that the splitters have gone mad especially with Acanthophis and Antaresia and supports your point you are trying to get across.
Personally I think at least in a morphology point of view, those miniature pythons are Stimsoni , if you solely rely on the given characteristics that were set as the defining differences in past literature e.g. lateral striping, smooth edged regular blotching etc. Also Stimsoni is supposed to have more dentary teeth than Maculosa (who is going to count though?) Having said this I wonder sometimes where the type specimens came from in the first place to make a general denture number conclusion in the first place. Regardless of the above, side by side the genuine Mossman Port Douglas, Cook Town Mac’s clearly look completely different to those little Stimsons, its is just so obvious.
Have people crossed the two, yes indeed and I know this for fact. One North QLD breeder has his own line of very popular and sought after Mac’( at least he let people believe they are) that are really Mt Carbine bred with a blonde Mac.
As for their exact locality, 2o Kms Georgetown side of Mt Surprise can be found almost identical specimens on occasions yet the most commonly encounters Antaresia either side of that point seems to be Mac’s. My experience in Georgetown is that you get both Stimsoni (being the most common) and every now again stumble on what (based on past characteristics) A. Maculosa.
A very complicated and confusing picture in regards to this genus in North QLD, that is for sure.
 
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Here's a pic of an Antaresia found about 20 odd kms west of Mt Suprise. I also believe Antaresia and most other things have been carved up way too much. I don't think this animal looks anything like the "dwarf stims my friend purchased though". The animal in the pic to me is a stim with Mac influence, as it has that high rainbow sheen that macs have...
 
Jason, to me that python look like a Mac, irregular ragged edged blotching and not really like the Mt Carbine Stimsons, (other than their dainty appearance). Going west From Mt surprise e.g towards the Lynd turn off, some specimen scream childreni.
 
After spending many years closely looking at the children's forms on the Tablelands; I consider myself to have more then a fair idea on the locality forms that occur here.
Who ever has seen a stimsons python in the wild on the coast at Mossman?
You guessed it; no one...they don't occur there; full stop....Mac's do.
As for stimsons around Mt molly; yes they do occur there; even then they are seldom seen; Mac's however are encountered more frequently.
These stimsons are very similar to animals seen around Mt Surprise; and animals seen further West towards Greenvale or north west towards Georgetown etc...
I've heard of these animals referred to by some; as 'Cape stimsons'.
Just for explanation sake; I'll refer to these animals as such.
These animals are not the miniature form of stimsons; and the C. stimsons are encountered; to about Mary farms; approximately 20k north of Mt Molly towards Mt Carbine.
About 30km's north of Mt Carbine is the Desailly's range; after climbing; and crossing the range; C. stimsons are again encountered; so to are Mac's.
So where do the miniature form of stimsons occur?
Lets just say they occur in a ' very small ' and limited local between Mary farms and the Desailly's.
Before those of you who think you'll race out there and bag a few; think again; their not commonly seen at all these days; and to even have a chance you would have to get well of the highway; and as expressed; unless you know where your going; you've buckley's and none; not to mention access to this area is limited.....station owners preferring to deal with trespassers in the 'Local manner'.
 
Jason
Call that python what you will but remember that the lateral stripe to a degree can also be found on some specimens of Maculosa from the north coast and imo you should rely on all the definitive characteristics that is if of course, that one accepts these as valid in the first place. I guess I just used to go with gut instinct based on catching and looking at hundreds of specimens encountered over many years haunting much of those areas. Even so, there were specimens which I suspected as being natural intermediate forms e.g. Some specimens from George Town.
 
sorry bout photos they are off my phone, can I get some advice on this
 

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so after at least 3 long threads now about a snake that was sold to me as a stimsons python from MOSSMAN CAINS along time ago . then within the last 5 years because after many ,many years of breeding this line it is garrenteed ...this snake grows to a max of 60 cm but a average of 50 cm and i know all my adults some as old as 9 are all around the 155 -200 gram max in weight ..depending on time of year this is fact . this is how they got the tag PYGMY.... (I was not the first person to call them this either).. i can only comment on the animals i have .. also another fact about my line is they average 6-7 eggs . i have had about 15 clutches now from various animals from this line 1 did get 10eggs once. the bloke i bought mine off said his biggest clutch was 7 .. another fact is there eyes appear to be higher set on the head then say other commonly kept antaresias . they have a very squat type appearance very angle shaped head . all this is fact . also my line seem to have very good clear banding . they also seem to have colour mood swings they go very blonde ,just unreal .then can darken up same day . this is fact . also i find them to be my most unusual antaresia and my favorite and i have 200 + from about 20 different parts of the country.

now this is what ive got from you guys ,from people that dont even keep them .... none of you guys can agree where they are or arnt found . but mossman seems very unlikely .. you cant even agree if they are macs ,stims ,childreni,intergrade, or should just be called antaresia ?.. some of you guys have said its just a scam ,

so anyway all you guys have done is make me and the many other people that have pmd me and phoned me up about my unreal little pythons is to think none of you have any clue what so ever . you guys are just hobbyest just like me . and state your opinions , beliefs, experiences as facts when they are not . old school herpers and want to bes thanks for nothing , you are the ones that make this hobby crap . and put blokes like me in these situations . all i have done is breed a top little python that me and many others are more then happy with . so i will just be calling them qld pygmy ANTARESIA from now on this is as proven as any other name in the reptile industry .

the only positive out of all this for me is, it has shown there is a great demand for these little guys and this season is looking good ... cant really see what more can be said on this subject but im sure you guys will keep talking more crap .... ANDY
 
well said andy. i for 1 an interested in these little python. i was suppost to pick a pair up yesturday, but have been mucked around. if this deal dose fall apart ill be in contact with you andy. i really dont care for the locality of these snakes, its the look im interested in
 
Well said Andy its a pity such a small group of hobbyist try to force there opinion on us as fact, if you do a search these same people have a expert opinion on nearly every species.
 
Jason
Call that python what you will but remember that the lateral stripe to a degree can also be found on some specimens of Maculosa from the north coast and imo you should rely on all the definitive characteristics that is if of course, that one accepts these as valid in the first place. I guess I just used to go with gut instinct based on catching and looking at hundreds of specimens encountered over many years haunting much of those areas. Even so, there were specimens which I suspected as being natural intermediate forms e.g. Some specimens from George Town.

Personally, I rate antaresia as the same species, but if I had to be forced to be picky, would rate any "mac" with any distinct lateral striping as either a stim or childreni intergrade, macs to me, have no stripe... but at the end of the day their all the same snake anyway..to me at least.
 
Andy
If you choose to rubbish real experience and informative insight on a species you claim to be dear to your heart, then please run away with your closed mind and continue to enjoy them.

Regards Dave
 
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