Reduced Pattern Morph Carpets

[JasonL]

I hear of corn rescues all the time, last one was a few days back, and they seem to have a great habit of eating peoples pet birds... only a matter of time before someone finds a baby one, at the moment they are all probably escaped adults, but snakes being snakes.......will find each other one day, if not already...

 

[pythons73]

Whats gunna happen when someone's jag escapes and starts spreading all those wonderfull neuro issues through our wild populations? Being native to our country it will happen eventually...[/QUOTE Whats the difference with a Jag escaping than a Murray Darling escaping into bush in say Sydney,either way there not in there locale area.The simple answer is to have enclosures that they cant escape.Simple...With all the line breeding here in Aus and some quality animals that have already been produced,there will be alot more good looking animals around,i would love a pair of those that SXR have,there absolutely stunning.The big picture is if you dont like them,Dont buy them...Everyone cant like the same colours-patterns etc.Just with pairing up the right animals anyone can produce some stunners,not as good as those jags...mark

 

[JasonL]

Yes Mark, there is really little difference in the big scheme of things, thats why personally I think Tasmania has the best wildlife keeping laws, just not the best wildlife reptile wise ..

 

[Southside Morelia]

I think their hot and would like to own some one day myself, but NOT at that price, lol....but what I am disappointed about is I own beautiful PURE RP animals cheynei & mcdowelli and when the time comes to sell the "hot" animals, i will have to prove the lineage and be ridiculed by the misinformed which will be inevitable I predict...which is a shame!
I'm sure that the very well respected breeders that have sold me the original stock, who too, are working on these lines will be disappointed as well and they are the ones that have been working on developing these lines for many years.
That's life I guess...IMO these PURE animals should be worth alot more than the X's... and as said we will produce equal or better over time. :|

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

I think their hot and would like to own some one day myself, but NOT at that price, lol....but what I am disappointed about is I own beautiful PURE RP animals cheynei & mcdowelli and when the time comes to sell the "hot" animals, i will have to prove the lineage and be ridiculed by the misinformed which will be inevitable I predict...which is a shame!
I'm sure that the very well respected breeders that have sold me the original stock, who too, are working on these lines will be disappointed as well and they are the ones that have been working on developing these lines for many years.
That's life I guess...IMO these PURE animals should be worth alot more than the X's... and as said we will produce equal or better over time. :|

Have to agree mate, same situation here. I have seen name dropping aplenty on who has pure lines and my animals have come from 3 of them. Sadly, I am certain I will hear all this crap again once I release some to the community. Worst part is, my coastals look just like the ones that folks here have been moaning about for the last couple of weeks. Oh well, next season's problem for me!

 

[pythons73]

From the last few years ive seen some really nice looking Coastals,Prossies etc,so with some good breeding with some of these magnificent animals im certain there will be some nice looking ones around sooner, rather than later.Theres a few nice RD pattern snakes around,so with some breeding there will be some stunners for sure....MARK

 

[BROWNS]

If people like myself and others that just posted saying they have pure animals that may get questioned as to their purity,the people who know their carpets well can pretty well almost take a hypothetical guess or give an opinion on snakes similar to these expensive animals and say they aqre genuinely pure.I live where the Prosrpine carpets first came from,actually 2 minutes away and have seen some of the most spectacular jag like carpets.2 nights ago I was about to take a pic of an awesome looking carpet but it boltedd and didn't get a pic to show everyone.We've all seen some Atherton lines that have been mistaken as jags but were pure Athertons,all you need is a spectacular carpet with an inherited gene and that would consistantly produce amazing animals which I know quite a few people are working on improving animals like this.When they get bred and it's time to sell some offspring as we can't keep them all no matter how much you'd like to but animals as nice or nicer than the ones mainly mentioned in this thread will be recognised by people familiar with them.I can spot a Prossy a mile away but that's because I've lived here for most of my life.Look at Pikes"Mike Moores" Athertons,they're pure animals and look as good and better than most of the rpm animals.So when people who have spent years developing and improving lines like this many will recognise them for what they are plus minus the neuro problems which seems to not be an issue for people wanting jags.

At the end of the day they're here so now how do we go about the ridiculous prices they fetch? Being that only a few people actually have these rpm jags cornering the market till they're everywhere being a co dominat trait and will become as common as garden skinks and people will be chasing pure animals which look just as good which will possibly affect the prices these others are being sold for.It's obvious there's jungle influence in some but why don't they look as good as the jungle jags overseas?It's because only a few come out as lovely bright wild patterned animals and the rest aren't much chop at all.It would make sense that people with these animals would obviously keep the outstanding specimens and flog off the rest for a good profit!

So who would like to own one of these even when they've been selectively bred for a few years producing animals that are simply amazing to look at however they have the drawback of having neuro problems,will looks outweigh animals that don't quite act as most normal carpets and are willing to sacrifice having neurological problems to own a pretty python?????????????

 

[mungus]

So Colin you would be happy to get one of those at those prices even though they have neuro problems just because they look nice?No doubt there's some amazing looking jags but would you be willing to take them in with neuro problems then breed them which would include putting them across all types of morekia to find out which combination looks the best then happily sell them into the hobby knowing they had neurological problems?.Some of the SXR ones may have been coastals but wouldn't be a predictable line however there were many there that screamed jag!People will start crossing them with everything trying to get stronger animals so eventually they successfully get leucistics and many wwould also be trying that which will completely muddle everything up with siblings etc and in time noone will know what they have and.

If they looked like the pictures I've posted which I hope is okay with the person who sent them to me along with no neuro problems I'd love some and with animals like these why wouldn't you?I believe we'll be producing pyre Aussie animals just as good as jags with predictable percentages being jags.

They are Awesome Mate !!!

 

[BROWNS]

Yeah they look spectacular however if it is in fact true all jags are affected to some degree with neurological problems which would be nice to hear peoples opinions on this from breeders overseas who know them better than we do?

So would you be happy to purchase,own,breed and sell the offspring of animals like those with problems that may or will get into our own collections of stunning animals and breed them with a stunning pure Aussie bred animal inheriting the neuro problems and so on?A lot of people are mentioning mainly one breeder as the first to come out in the open with some of these "animals" yet these animals have been in the country for some time and there's definitely more than just one person with them so when discussing these animals I'm talking about all or anyone else that have acquired these type of animals,they had to come out in the open sooner or later.I would love to have an animal like some of the best we've seen but now after learning apparently all of these types don't act like normal carpets which would obviously be caused by the gene that has mutated to produce these rpm's,jags,trick carpets etc etc the potential for damaging this hobby is not looking so good!

 

[WombleHerp]

ok...
So I know there has been something going on with the whole "neuro probs" issue since the hype on Jags showed its face.. But I have never actually looked into it, as to, how it is caused, why it is caused, how big of an issue it really is (without blowing everything all out of proportion!), and is there a way of breeding around this issue, while still getting the same amazingly patterned animals?
Am genuinely interested in the facts of the matter!

(+1 Jag fan)

Natalie

 

[ihaveherps]

herpsrule.... it seems the consensus is that all jags are affected by the neurological condition, just the extent varies. It seems to range from crockscrewing at the extreme end of the scale to a twitch in others, some display the tick in every day life, and others only occasionally when stimulated, by handling or feed response excitement...

 

[chilli]

herpsrule.... it seems the consensus is that all jags are affected by the neurological condition

that's the consensus of people who hate jags and have never kept them.

 

[WombleHerp]

that's the consensus of people who hate jags and have never kept them.

This is what I mean, are there any studies or anything of the like on the actual cause of neurological problems that may or may not occur in Jags, and/or other species/morphs of python (mainly morelia in this case) simply due to breeding?? :|


Natalie

 

[tomcat88]

that's the consensus of people who hate jags and have never kept them.

so you own jags and can tell us all that they dont have any neuro problems... very interesting. maybe its the consensus of the informed and educated????

edit: not implying ihaveherps has jags implying he might have done a bit of actual research

 

[chilli]

so you own jags and can tell us all that they dont have any neuro problems... very interesting. maybe its the consensus of the informed and educated????

no mate they interest me less and less now, but you only need to search OS forums, and there are thousands of keepers and the only references to neurological problems, are people who don't have them posting "i've heard all jags have neuro problems, is that right?"

why don't you contact people who keep them instead of creating some "knowledge" about their 'problems'.

it is highly unlikely that some large breeders OS have hundreds of cork-screwing snakes, and continue to breed them. at least any snake doing that is likely to be euthanased, and not sold.

i think this whole problem scenario is being played up by those pressing their own agenda fuelled mainly by their fear that their snakes would become obselete in the supply versus demand market.

oh, and ironically, mr cat, your sarcasm regarding the educated is indeed humourous, as you have repeatedly claimed that the first jags were coastal cross IJ's. a little research would convince you that jan eric engell was the breeder and produced and named the first jaguar from two coastals. www.jaguarpython.dk

 

[tomcat88]

there is a neuro issue that seems to crop up in relation to jags, but i agree that it is most likely blown way out of proportion. time will tell i suppose, would be interesting to see if it is jag related or simply americans imbreeding to the point of creating problems.

 

[Ramsayi]

Not so sure it is blown out of all proportion or maybe it is? Maybe the jag x jag outcome is also blown out of proportion too? :lol:

 

[ihaveherps]

no mate they interest me less and less now, but you only need to search OS forums, and there are thousands of keepers and the only references to neurological problems, are people who don't have them posting "i've heard all jags have neuro problems, is that right?"

why don't you contact people who keep them instead of creating some "knowledge" about their 'problems'.

it is highly unlikely that some large breeders OS have hundreds of cork-screwing snakes, and continue to breed them. at least any snake doing that is likely to be euthanased, and not sold.

i think this whole problem scenario is being played up by those pressing their own agenda fuelled mainly by their fear that their snakes would become obselete in the supply versus demand market.

Whatever.... Chilli, I suggest you look further into the international keeping. Jag neuro conditions for a long time were hush/taboo to talk about, and the most vehement debate counter to the existence were those heavily invested in the Jag market, though now after a few keepers bought the tick into the light they are now commonly thrown into the same basket as Spider Balls, another morph known for neuro conditions. I was fair, covering the full spectrum when explaining to herpsrule, and honestly breed bugger all animals, even though I own what some consider to be a largish collection. To dispell the existance of of this condition is ludicrous, there is a myriad of youtube vids out there that display from minimal to extreme cases of neuro in Jags, they commonly have issues staying still when supporting their own weight, when say they extend their torso (for lack of a better word) from a perch, they seem to sway slightly. I dont really care what people choose to keep, if Jags are their thing, so be it, but to totally dispell the fact that all Jags display some neuro issues to however minute a scale is is rediculous, I was just honestly representing the full spectrum.

 

[Kris]

I've heard people shrug off the need to quarantine new animals, or follow strict hygeine practices after having handled animals from other collections in much the same way as this. "Oh surely it's blown out of proportion, just scare tactics, blah blah blah". It often ends just as badly as the assumption that jag breeders couldn't possibly continue to breed and sell their animals despite the frequency of neurological issues. As it's already been said, not all jags corkscrew, not all die, some simply have infrequent ticking. Neuro problems that involve only sporadic, relatively harmless looking symptoms are still neuro problems. Certainly, some jag x jags dropping dead is well documented enough. That to me is reason enough to think the jag gene is a faulty one. If you couldn't breed your Taipan with another Taipan as it would result in death that would be considered an issue. But because these are "pretty" and fetch a good price let's just pretend that it's okay.

 

[kidsheart]

i love and have been super interested in jags for many years now.
BUT everything i have read points to the conclusion that all jags do suffer neuro problems, supposedly brought on by stress. are they always noticeably? hardly. sometimes they are pretty extreme, sometimes they seem to have almost no issue at all, but from what i have read in numerous articles, it is always present, and always will be in jags.

as for ppl selling and keeping snakes with such issues. i personally dont have any issue with it besides the threat of it spreading into other species through cross breeding.
would i keep an animal, such as a jag, knowing it has neuro probs..... definatly.
would i sell a similar animal? why not, provided the buyer is completely aware....

however i think the issue that everyone is most concerned about is the neuro problems being bred into other species and then being sold off as "pure jungles, bredlies etc etc". and the probs spreading on from there. which is a fair enough argument.