MikeCurtin
Not so new Member
Use that Anita!!!! Use it!!! When someone acts in that manner, bring them right back to where the debate belongs, and call them on knocking it off course!!! You will be pleased by the results.
Banning Snakes in the USA - Next Australia?
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MikeCurtin
Not so new Member
To those who have mentioned this bill is only about 9 constrictor species, please pay careful attention to the last paragraph. It's only a matter of time.
Bill Nelson, U.S. Senator from Florida: Media Release: Key Senate panel passes import ban on giant snakes
Bill Nelson, U.S. Senator from Florida: Media Release: Key Senate panel passes import ban on giant snakes
AnitaBlake
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That would be lovely if people were capable of agreeing and respecting the opinions of others enough to take their views into consideration while "representing" them. In this country each state has differing laws, policed by different agencies. Which one should this one group be approaching? Hence (if you must have a group) the idea of a different group for each state.
Jamie, there's nothing cryptic about my statements. They have been made in response to you as has clearly been seen. I have seen the usual run of differing opinions expressed in differing ways. Since you're one of the people talking about the need for cohesion, cooperation and diplomacy and some of your posts have been rudely dismissive when people have disagreed, I am understandably dubious about the true value in a group which would operate in the way you have described. Why should people who have a vested interest speak elsewhere? Why can't they contribute? And why is it that people showing their concern about some of our more lax laws are automatically branded dissenters?
moosenoose
Legendary
Actually, you are correct. The horse has bolted and it won’t really help at all. I also agree that such a huge industry should be protected. I guess when something is on fire; the best way to stop it spreading is aim for the centre. It appears this is what they are trying to achieving getting this legislation passed.
I’m not against a body speaking on behalf of keepers/breeders here in Australia, and I’d gladly join in the knowledge I’d be helping to throw weight into the numbers. If I also had to use hindsight, and something like this did happen here in Aust, I’d be silly if I said I wouldn’t want to be part of a group that helped protect those rights. Like I said earlier though, you have nothing short of a catastrophe on your hands with:
, and whatever lobby power you thought you might have had went out the window when these things were either released or escaped. If we have deaths here in Australia, as a result of an escaped ven, a large constrictor or any other public safety issues that is a result of careless keeping, we won’t have a leg to stand on either. Sadly, that’s human nature. To make it worse we deal with critters people don’t want next door to them and would rather see wiped off the face of the planet all together.
Anyway, I'm sure I've put my personal view across on the matter. I will look on with interest. Enough from me
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
You've got me again Anita - my powers of perception are usually very good, but it wasn't totally clear to me that your problem was with me. I haven't actually actually dismissed anything anyone has said as far as I can see, but to those who say there is no proof of a threat, I am telling them they are wrong - from where I sit I know this to be true. All I suggest they do, if they see no threat, is to distance themselves from the debate because they have stated it does not concern them - they acknowledge that there is no need for action. That's fine by me, but if they actively try to dismantle work being done by many of us - I'll do a bit of name dropping - Simon Stone, John Weigel, Anthony Stimson, Glenn Shea, Mike Duncan, Jason Flesch, among many others - I will suggest they stay out of the loop.
The people I have mentioned have many and varied reasons for being involved with reptile keeping, but I have to say, to a man (yes, sadly there are few women) they have put their individual interests aside for the good of the hobby when dealing with threats to the hobby. Together they represent many decades of knowledge and experience.
I know in whose hands I'd place my trust.
Jamie
The people I have mentioned have many and varied reasons for being involved with reptile keeping, but I have to say, to a man (yes, sadly there are few women) they have put their individual interests aside for the good of the hobby when dealing with threats to the hobby. Together they represent many decades of knowledge and experience.
I know in whose hands I'd place my trust.
Jamie
Firstly, I think we can forget about national legislation on native animal keeping. Australia has a diverse environment with diverse wildlife and native species to one state could be considered a pest in others. I don't see the NRKA as being a national lobby group as an advisory council represting Australia's herpetoculturalists. There are going to be various obsticles in each state that will need to be overcome and the local herpetological societies in conjunction with a national body would be the ones to work on overcomming these obsticles.
It's rather funny to see the fear of animal protection organisations from a community that vehemently resisted minimum keeping standards. My opinion is that the NSW model does afford some protection because there will be a legislative control over the animals quality of life. It's a catch 22, the more control exherted on how we keep reptiles removed potential arguments presented by animal welfare organisations.
Damien
It's rather funny to see the fear of animal protection organisations from a community that vehemently resisted minimum keeping standards. My opinion is that the NSW model does afford some protection because there will be a legislative control over the animals quality of life. It's a catch 22, the more control exherted on how we keep reptiles removed potential arguments presented by animal welfare organisations.
Damien
Oh Jamie that just glows with cohesion....."if you dont agree with our elite way of thinking...us experienced herpers...who have bled for your right to bare herps....then stay away, dont talk to us...or we will personally attack you and drop names to remind you how insignificant you are...then drop a subtle reference to the unimportance of your gender...then once again remind you of the invisible threat for which I cannot give you any hard evidence......"
Oh yeah, this little association is going to bring us all together isn't it- we will be singing kumbaya in no time. This thread is the EXACT reason that the head count you all need to continue making dollars from us is always going to feel patronised and disrespected.
So we have an American who makes money exporting to his associates backing up the people who make money from importing those herps convincing us we need to act...then we have the oldschool telling us to stay out of it while encouraging us to get into it...then we have educated less experienced keepers being shot down and dismissed when they try to offer an opinion that comes from a well meaning place....... sheesh !!!!
See, this is the sort of commentary that is the root of the problem. It is not paranoia and rubbish we smell- it is just that so often minor collectors like us feel ignored and often patronised by the very industry we feed- and then when we are given the time of day it is because the weight of our membership is seen as one of the few tools available to help the industry stay afloat if the fan is hit by poo. Where were the high fives when we were handing over large wads of cash or getting uour friends into the hobby ? The industry was too busy counting the money and making sure the bills weren't fake.
Sweeping generalistaions, Innuendo,assuming we all know nothing, assuming all Conservation groups are militant left wingers...
Come on mate !
Some of us have experience working with government groups- some us work IN government groups- some of us are members of PETA and Sea Shepherd and Greenpeace and PETA.....some of us are well educated and well versed both in policy and in the processes which regulate the hobby...some of us get to read the paperwork, and see the hpocrisy whilst sitting back and watching the boys cry wolf..I am a meber of all those named, have hosted large groups in my home, and not ONCE EVER have i heard the hobby mentioned or been questioned or outcast for my hobby- with a house full of some of the more militant vegan types, the first question asked was, "can I hold one of them .." I have never been to a meeting to discuss anything but natural conservation and anti-exploitation. Climate Change and Gay Rights are further up the agenda of these groups than our Herp keeping. Likewise with the EPA- they are just like us; some of them are our friends, or our wives or our parents- they were in many cases responsible for nurturing our herp obsession in the first place.
Don't confuse animal lovers with people haters.
And don't EVER confuse America with Australia.
RHETORIC is what we hear- communicaion designed to elicit a prescribed response.....confirming once again that we are seen as pawns or just easy targets!!!! .. some of us can smell a rat as well as any of our pets.
Most of us do not think of what we do for love as a $3Bn dollar industry in dire straits in need of our support- for a long time we have been conditioned to believe we are just sands in the hour glass- by the same circles that are now insisting we can change the world.. is there not a hint of irony there ?
...many of us are the antithesis of the militant green ethos- and I find it hard personally to empathise with the high rollers who have for years made serious dollars from our enthusiasm and GENUINE love of reptiles. What does an albino really cost when the basics are averaged out ? What relevance does a foreign market have to anyone but those esteemed breeders whose licence allows them the luxury of import and export ? What is the real loss incurred to the cruisy herper when imports are banned in a foreign land from whom we are unable to import anyway...the only loss I see is to those who have long engaged with the business connections that most of the members here remain completely oblivious to- the herp swapping, the backdoor dealing, the handshakes, the scientific study and swapped emails, photos, old boys club mentality and ritual hybridisation that has been happening for years.
Does the teenager here who owns a pair of spotteds and loves them like children really need to feel as though the SAS are going to drop through the rafters and gas his pets because a few militant senators in the States have finally made steps to ensure their own wildlife is not destroyed by their own lack of hardened regulation in the first place ?
A National body needs to be formed, but that is the end result and supplementary to the desperate need for lots of satellite groups with common interests to be formed FIRST. Then this angellic culture saving national body may be formed from representatives of those smaller groups- it will cut down on the bickering while ensuring that ALL of our interests are given some screen time. But we are struggling to even join a team, let alone get to first base and win the world series (pun most definitely intended).
And if the so called environmental lobbyists have infiltrated our government to the point that they now have direct control over legislation, why is it so hot today ? They cant even agree on how to get us to catch the bus to work. When was the last Midnight Oil song released ?
Oh yeah, this little association is going to bring us all together isn't it- we will be singing kumbaya in no time. This thread is the EXACT reason that the head count you all need to continue making dollars from us is always going to feel patronised and disrespected.
So we have an American who makes money exporting to his associates backing up the people who make money from importing those herps convincing us we need to act...then we have the oldschool telling us to stay out of it while encouraging us to get into it...then we have educated less experienced keepers being shot down and dismissed when they try to offer an opinion that comes from a well meaning place....... sheesh !!!!
See, this is the sort of commentary that is the root of the problem. It is not paranoia and rubbish we smell- it is just that so often minor collectors like us feel ignored and often patronised by the very industry we feed- and then when we are given the time of day it is because the weight of our membership is seen as one of the few tools available to help the industry stay afloat if the fan is hit by poo. Where were the high fives when we were handing over large wads of cash or getting uour friends into the hobby ? The industry was too busy counting the money and making sure the bills weren't fake.
Sweeping generalistaions, Innuendo,assuming we all know nothing, assuming all Conservation groups are militant left wingers...
Come on mate !
Some of us have experience working with government groups- some us work IN government groups- some of us are members of PETA and Sea Shepherd and Greenpeace and PETA.....some of us are well educated and well versed both in policy and in the processes which regulate the hobby...some of us get to read the paperwork, and see the hpocrisy whilst sitting back and watching the boys cry wolf..I am a meber of all those named, have hosted large groups in my home, and not ONCE EVER have i heard the hobby mentioned or been questioned or outcast for my hobby- with a house full of some of the more militant vegan types, the first question asked was, "can I hold one of them .." I have never been to a meeting to discuss anything but natural conservation and anti-exploitation. Climate Change and Gay Rights are further up the agenda of these groups than our Herp keeping. Likewise with the EPA- they are just like us; some of them are our friends, or our wives or our parents- they were in many cases responsible for nurturing our herp obsession in the first place.
Don't confuse animal lovers with people haters.
And don't EVER confuse America with Australia.
RHETORIC is what we hear- communicaion designed to elicit a prescribed response.....confirming once again that we are seen as pawns or just easy targets!!!! .. some of us can smell a rat as well as any of our pets.
Most of us do not think of what we do for love as a $3Bn dollar industry in dire straits in need of our support- for a long time we have been conditioned to believe we are just sands in the hour glass- by the same circles that are now insisting we can change the world.. is there not a hint of irony there ?
...many of us are the antithesis of the militant green ethos- and I find it hard personally to empathise with the high rollers who have for years made serious dollars from our enthusiasm and GENUINE love of reptiles. What does an albino really cost when the basics are averaged out ? What relevance does a foreign market have to anyone but those esteemed breeders whose licence allows them the luxury of import and export ? What is the real loss incurred to the cruisy herper when imports are banned in a foreign land from whom we are unable to import anyway...the only loss I see is to those who have long engaged with the business connections that most of the members here remain completely oblivious to- the herp swapping, the backdoor dealing, the handshakes, the scientific study and swapped emails, photos, old boys club mentality and ritual hybridisation that has been happening for years.
Does the teenager here who owns a pair of spotteds and loves them like children really need to feel as though the SAS are going to drop through the rafters and gas his pets because a few militant senators in the States have finally made steps to ensure their own wildlife is not destroyed by their own lack of hardened regulation in the first place ?
A National body needs to be formed, but that is the end result and supplementary to the desperate need for lots of satellite groups with common interests to be formed FIRST. Then this angellic culture saving national body may be formed from representatives of those smaller groups- it will cut down on the bickering while ensuring that ALL of our interests are given some screen time. But we are struggling to even join a team, let alone get to first base and win the world series (pun most definitely intended).
And if the so called environmental lobbyists have infiltrated our government to the point that they now have direct control over legislation, why is it so hot today ? They cant even agree on how to get us to catch the bus to work. When was the last Midnight Oil song released ?
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MikeCurtin
Not so new Member
Do you have any national system of governance overseeing individual states and/or territory? Forgive my ignorance on the matter. Whether yes or no, set up one organization with a chapter in each state. Representatives from each chapter could discuss what is going on within their respective states, which will keep others abreast of possibilities in their states, and so on. We have to assume that state legislators talk to each other, so we should do the same. Communication is key!
Actually, if you aim for the center of the fire, you'll wind up with a bunch of little fires and be trapped in the middle of them. The best way to contain it is to look at the most vulnerable areas...section by section. Protect them first, then work toward the center.
Nothing wrong with adding when you've got something to add.Anyway, I'm sure I've put my personal view across on the matter. I will look on with interest. Enough from me
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
It's rather funny to see the fear of animal protection organisations from a community that vehemently resisted minimum keeping standards. My opinion is that the NSW model does afford some protection because there will be a legislative control over the animals quality of life. It's a catch 22, the more control exherted on how we keep reptiles removed potential arguments presented by animal welfare organisations.
Damien
Damien, I'm not sure what you mean by this. The outcome as you see it now differs substantially from what could have been, and results from many, many hours work by all involved, including DECC NPWS staff. As is usually the case, quite a bit of the to & fro arguments were generated by one particular individual who had a poorly informed, idealogical attitude, which had no basis in practical, or even humane, management.
I think participants on both sides of the table were generally quite satisfied with the outcome.
Jamie.
Damien
Damien, I'm not sure what you mean by this. The outcome as you see it now differs substantially from what could have been, and results from many, many hours work by all involved, including DECC NPWS staff. As is usually the case, quite a bit of the to & fro arguments were generated by one particular individual who had a poorly informed, idealogical attitude, which had no basis in practical, or even humane, management.
I think participants on both sides of the table were generally quite satisfied with the outcome.
Jamie.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Gee Weezer - you do have some issues, too many for me to address here now. I'll just say you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely. You have issues with money and the cost of herps sold by 'elite' (read capable) breeders - that's not even being discussed here. if you read what i said about the development of the NRKA in an earlier post - it will develop exactly as you suggest it should, and I invite you to put your name forward to participate - we don't mind slumming it lol!!! (that was joke by the way...) What was it about the mention of those names that inflamed you. All you have to do is get your group together and organised, work out an agenda and the issues of concern to you, and go from there. We look forward to your input as to how the NRKA should evolve.
I am not offering the slightest criticism of the groups you mention (you will note that I have not mentioned by name one single animal rights organisation - why? - because they can do excellent work when focussed on things that really matter). They are huge and diverse organisations with various agendas, not all of which are obvious, even to you.
I too spent a working lifetime in a bureaucracy linked to wildlife, and have been keeping reptiles for 50 odd years, so you can be as sarcastic and snipy as you like, I know what I'm talking about.
Jamie.
I am not offering the slightest criticism of the groups you mention (you will note that I have not mentioned by name one single animal rights organisation - why? - because they can do excellent work when focussed on things that really matter). They are huge and diverse organisations with various agendas, not all of which are obvious, even to you.
I too spent a working lifetime in a bureaucracy linked to wildlife, and have been keeping reptiles for 50 odd years, so you can be as sarcastic and snipy as you like, I know what I'm talking about.
Jamie.
herptrader
Very Well-Known Member
Having read through this thread it is clear to me that one of the biggest problems we face is that organisations like the RSPCA and PETA are run by professionals that have huge propaganda machines at their disposal to drive their income. A significant part of their funding comes from government.
The reptile associations lack the propaganda machines that drive the income and therefore have to rely on limited amateur resources. When push comes to shove we are a very poor cousin!
When was the last time a reptile association called and tried to sell you some crappy pen or requested a donation?
The reptile associations lack the propaganda machines that drive the income and therefore have to rely on limited amateur resources. When push comes to shove we are a very poor cousin!
When was the last time a reptile association called and tried to sell you some crappy pen or requested a donation?
No mate, I am a donating member of PETA, have played at a few festivals supporting cruelty free living, and have had friends at my home who are also members. Meetings are very rarely, if ever, held in a person's home- the cloak and dagger approach is not well looked upon.
There is not a very strong base for PETA in Australia, but there are many members- if only by volunteering handing out flyers, or making small donations etc.. Of course there are the odd crazy hardliners, as with any group with strong ideals, but that isnt my cup of tea.
This is.
jamie: I welcome any counter to the argument I put forward. The issue of import/export is directly linked to the example being used to ruffle our feathers into action, is it not...that the USA is banning the import of foreign retics ? is that not the example we are led to belive is standing on our doorstep.... if you would prefer to imply I have personal issues and go all PC on me then my sarcastic and snipey opinions stand unchallenged.
but I am sure the members here would rather you explain why my points are being barely acknowledged in favour of a couple of personal bunny punches. I expected a well considered and nicely worded response explaining that I may have taken your comments out of context. And no, I do not have issues with spending money- I can PM you a list of sellers whom I have ppaid large sums- or you can read the feedback posts- I just have an issue with sweeping one's financial issues under the carpet while pulling the guilt trip or scare campaign on regular herpers, and in the same breath making references to propoganda machines. In 4 years of being a member here on and off, this would be the first time I have even mentioned my memberships- I suppose that makes me a sleeper cell. I have no doubt that evryone here regardless of agenda has a place in their soul for reptiles- that is why we filled out the membership form in the first place- but if we are going to band together I think all vested interests, conflicts of interest and group allegiances need to be shared.
Like I just did. Then I could never be accused of hiding my personal agenda.
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MikeCurtin
Not so new Member
....or maybe it was just an American who sees what's going on here, and wants to warn folks over there about the potential. Maybe what happens there doesn't really matter to people here because if our legislation passes, it's a moot point. Maybe some people are just rude and condescending.
I don't recall anyone assuming ALL animal rights groups were left wing militants, rather I mentioned HSUS and PETA. I have seen blogs where individual PETA members have supported the American bill, and I posted the info on HSUS.
I don't confuse animal lovers with people haters...unless they happen to be one and the same based upon their actions.
I wouldn't confuse America with Australia....and I would NEVER think to make an insult, whether blatant or veiled, along those lines.
You know what I make off of my snakes? Enough to feed them and house them. I've been getting active here because I love my snakes, and I know that this is just the beginning.
How is that teenager going to develop that love for his spotteds if he can't keep them in the first place? The senators here are not acting to ensure the safety of our wildlife....they are acting as a matter of politics. There are STATE laws in effect. Ironically, they are in effect in the very state as Senator Bill Nelson, the author of this bill.....banning these animals nationally does not help.
Use your energy to single out those that are divisive. Weed out the noise from reality and what is in the best interest of your community. You're not struggling to join a team, you're struggling to decide whether or not you should talk about forming a team to join in the first place.
Maybe this planet has always had cyclical climate patterns, and changing that is not as easy as some would suggest.
I miss Midnight Oil.
Yeah me too Mike. I miss Peter Garrett moreso. Whatever happened to that guy .....?
I think we're getting a bit off track here.
Rather than fighting among ourselves we should probably be looking at the clear and present danger in the form of so-called animal welfare groups trying to put a stop to our hobby.
It's really very simple.
Groups such as PETA and RSPCA seek to ban our hobby. If you do not believe me, please, please, contact them youself. By all means, refuse to take my word for it, but if you do so, check for yourself. It only takes an email.
They are behind the current push in the USA, which is a watered down version of their attempt at a complete ban, and if successful they will continue towards that goal. They will use whatever excuse presents itself at any time to put whatever restriction they can on us, and will not stop until there is a complete ban.
Any progress by these organisations against us in any country, particularly the USA, will without a doubt set precedents for similar restrictions elsewhere. It is easy for the Australian branches of these 'welfare' organisations to say "They did it in the USA, surely we should do the same here".
Make no mistake, laws are not always made for the right reasons. The correct decision is not always made. Because of this, we can not simply sit back and relax because we are in the right. That will not protect us, we need to protect ourselves.
We all have our own opinions, and these do vary. However... at the risk of sounding cliquey and elitist, take note of the fact that those with the most knowledge and experience all agree that we face a serious threat. It is only the uninformed who hold the "We'll be okay, it's fine" attitude towards this issue. I know I will be resented for making this statement, but if you are one of the people who are offended, please take the time to consider the situation carefully, learn as much as you can, and then consider what is happening. The reality really is quite clear if you look at this situation objectively.
We need to understand that we should not be fighting about this issue, we need to defend our right to keep native wildlife and not fight amonst ourselves while others are fighting against us.
This thread was initiated by the concerns of the Barkers, arguably the world's leading authority on boas and pythons and undoubtedly they are among the most knowledgable in the world of herpetology and have been around for a long time, pioneering the way, observing and being part of herpetocultural history. When people like this who usually stay quiet make a plea for help, it is a big concern if we turn away, and says something bad about us as a community.
If you care about your right, and my right, to keep reptiles and other native wildlife, and if you care about that right for people around the world, take this issue seriously, or at the very least, please don't attack those who do.
Rather than fighting among ourselves we should probably be looking at the clear and present danger in the form of so-called animal welfare groups trying to put a stop to our hobby.
It's really very simple.
Groups such as PETA and RSPCA seek to ban our hobby. If you do not believe me, please, please, contact them youself. By all means, refuse to take my word for it, but if you do so, check for yourself. It only takes an email.
They are behind the current push in the USA, which is a watered down version of their attempt at a complete ban, and if successful they will continue towards that goal. They will use whatever excuse presents itself at any time to put whatever restriction they can on us, and will not stop until there is a complete ban.
Any progress by these organisations against us in any country, particularly the USA, will without a doubt set precedents for similar restrictions elsewhere. It is easy for the Australian branches of these 'welfare' organisations to say "They did it in the USA, surely we should do the same here".
Make no mistake, laws are not always made for the right reasons. The correct decision is not always made. Because of this, we can not simply sit back and relax because we are in the right. That will not protect us, we need to protect ourselves.
We all have our own opinions, and these do vary. However... at the risk of sounding cliquey and elitist, take note of the fact that those with the most knowledge and experience all agree that we face a serious threat. It is only the uninformed who hold the "We'll be okay, it's fine" attitude towards this issue. I know I will be resented for making this statement, but if you are one of the people who are offended, please take the time to consider the situation carefully, learn as much as you can, and then consider what is happening. The reality really is quite clear if you look at this situation objectively.
We need to understand that we should not be fighting about this issue, we need to defend our right to keep native wildlife and not fight amonst ourselves while others are fighting against us.
This thread was initiated by the concerns of the Barkers, arguably the world's leading authority on boas and pythons and undoubtedly they are among the most knowledgable in the world of herpetology and have been around for a long time, pioneering the way, observing and being part of herpetocultural history. When people like this who usually stay quiet make a plea for help, it is a big concern if we turn away, and says something bad about us as a community.
If you care about your right, and my right, to keep reptiles and other native wildlife, and if you care about that right for people around the world, take this issue seriously, or at the very least, please don't attack those who do.
Sorry for the DP, but that is one of my issues, mate- I truly think that kid already has the love- whilst it will contiue to grow, I worry that the carefree spirit that got him there is going to be skewed, mishapen and bent when he/she realises that there is an implicit obligation to take a political stance in order to enjoy something that few of his/her friends and family understand. That is the scary part. And what are we all going to offer other than condescending overtones and insecurity with this kind of debate ?
And you are probably correct- I am struggling with the next jump- because by all accounts it looks like the heirachy has already been formed, the modus operandi drawn up by a select few, and that the rest will just make up the numbers- but what needs to be realised is that some of us lower keepers have some amazing gear beyond breeding our herps to offer the cause. our comparitive lack of experience (as Jamie said, he has 45+ solid years up on most of us) should not be seen to be a hinderence or lower our value...because if a war does kick off; our knowledge of keeping is going to serve us all less than our ability to speak, write rally the troops and argue our point well beyond what our tattooed skin and long hair would suggest.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Weezer, I don't actually know where you're coming from in this debate. Like Anita's comments, some of yours are so obscure it is hard to find a point to discuss. I mean that in all sincerity - it's not a shot at you.
You suggest I should offer a reasoned response to the issues you have raised, well, clarify them and I will. I think your last long post sounded very much like you have a chip on your shoulder about something or other, and is more of a general spray than a focussed criticism of what I have said so far. You were the one who mentioned the "high rollers who made serious dollars." Are you suggesting they exploited their knowledge and dedication to reptiles entirely for money. Get real - not one of them drives a Rolls Royce as far as I know, but they all have personal helicopters if that counts lol! (that too was a joke!)
The people who own the names which have inflamed you so much have, in fact, done monumental amounts of work on behalf of ALL herpers in this country in the past 20-30 years, and sure, some of them have gained privileges because of that work. But any privileges gained are often the result, not only of hard work, but of huge financial investment as well, always without any guarantee of recovering costs, let alone getting any profit. The often squawked Rough Scaled Python story is one which comes to mind - do you think the almost 20 trips to the remote Kimberley coast, and 3 year+ negotiating with CALM costs nothing? John has made very little from the RSP exercise himself, but he has broken hugely valuable ground bureaucratically and provided for us an example of dedication and technical excellence. The RSP story is unique in the world.
You have made some assumptions about how the NRKA will develop and operate, and who it will benefit. I assure you your assumptions are wrong on all points. There are no vested interests trying to grab the agenda, simply because the agenda has not been set. And why is that? Because there has been no herp community discussion at this stage. So if you want to be involved and you have a contribution to make, please accept this invitation to get your thoughts together.
jamieJ
You suggest I should offer a reasoned response to the issues you have raised, well, clarify them and I will. I think your last long post sounded very much like you have a chip on your shoulder about something or other, and is more of a general spray than a focussed criticism of what I have said so far. You were the one who mentioned the "high rollers who made serious dollars." Are you suggesting they exploited their knowledge and dedication to reptiles entirely for money. Get real - not one of them drives a Rolls Royce as far as I know, but they all have personal helicopters if that counts lol! (that too was a joke!)
The people who own the names which have inflamed you so much have, in fact, done monumental amounts of work on behalf of ALL herpers in this country in the past 20-30 years, and sure, some of them have gained privileges because of that work. But any privileges gained are often the result, not only of hard work, but of huge financial investment as well, always without any guarantee of recovering costs, let alone getting any profit. The often squawked Rough Scaled Python story is one which comes to mind - do you think the almost 20 trips to the remote Kimberley coast, and 3 year+ negotiating with CALM costs nothing? John has made very little from the RSP exercise himself, but he has broken hugely valuable ground bureaucratically and provided for us an example of dedication and technical excellence. The RSP story is unique in the world.
You have made some assumptions about how the NRKA will develop and operate, and who it will benefit. I assure you your assumptions are wrong on all points. There are no vested interests trying to grab the agenda, simply because the agenda has not been set. And why is that? Because there has been no herp community discussion at this stage. So if you want to be involved and you have a contribution to make, please accept this invitation to get your thoughts together.
jamieJ
CarpetPythons.com.au
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I will definately support Team Weezer. Definately one of the best posts i have read ever! The comeback from the oposition in the debate was quite anticlimactic!
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Another note, and a short one - I've actually got other things to do today...
Weezer, never assume that I discount the knowledge of any herper, based on the time they have been keeping. That is unfair and just plain wrong. I know stuff that you don't know, you know stuff that I don't know, it's as simple as that. You have also assumed that the 'old guard' , the 'select few' as you call them, is taking control, and for selfish reasons. Wrong on both counts again. You are the one calling yourself a 'lower keeper' - whatever that means.
The NRKA has to start somewhere... I'm sorry it didn't start with you at the epicentre, but now's your chance to become involved.
Jamie
Weezer, never assume that I discount the knowledge of any herper, based on the time they have been keeping. That is unfair and just plain wrong. I know stuff that you don't know, you know stuff that I don't know, it's as simple as that. You have also assumed that the 'old guard' , the 'select few' as you call them, is taking control, and for selfish reasons. Wrong on both counts again. You are the one calling yourself a 'lower keeper' - whatever that means.
The NRKA has to start somewhere... I'm sorry it didn't start with you at the epicentre, but now's your chance to become involved.
Jamie
yeah we could definitely do this all day- i will put a post up, then you will tell me i am jibbering, and feign a lack of understanding, then tell me to get it together, then attempt to mistranslate my post to imply I insulted this country's most respected keepers, whose books I own, whose lines I keep; whose contribution is not in duspute by me or anyone else here...
anyone who reads this can re-read my posts to see I did not tar those pioneers, who I respect deeply, with any dirty brush and that your arguments are personal and evasive. By my opinion that you used their credibility to add weight to your argument, and then imply that by my not agreeing to your fascist ethos I am somehow disrespecting their work......Wow. just Wow.
I am going to go with Sdaji's respectful suggestion and walk away from your attempts to discredit me by implying such .....
seeya mate.
anyone who reads this can re-read my posts to see I did not tar those pioneers, who I respect deeply, with any dirty brush and that your arguments are personal and evasive. By my opinion that you used their credibility to add weight to your argument, and then imply that by my not agreeing to your fascist ethos I am somehow disrespecting their work......Wow. just Wow.
I am going to go with Sdaji's respectful suggestion and walk away from your attempts to discredit me by implying such .....
seeya mate.
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