reptile sale slump???

[Glowmonkey]

I notice there doesnt seem to be any comments from buyers here, so I'll throw my two cents worth in and offer my explaination for not rushing in.

Ive been interested in starting off with a Bredli for nearly a year now, after spending some time with a mates gorgeous female hypo yearling, who in his words, loved me. When I first decided to buy it seemed everybody I knew was saying wow I want a snake, a few of them with cash to burn ran out and did it, (thanks mr Rudd for the stimulus for part of that rush). What most of them bought was anything the pet store had in stock, or whatever was cheap enough to just be able to say yeh Ive got a snake too. As for me Ive sat back, I want a good snake, but I didnt consider myself educated enough yet to risk laying out $600-800 on something I might not have been able to look after, and wasnt going to just buy something to learn with, that I couldnt keep later. So Ive waited and watched. What I noticed is that perhaps because of the previous high price of good adult specimens making owning a pure pair too expensive most of the Hypo Bredli's on the market came from breeders that only had one hypo and one common, and pure specimens were harder to find, it now seems a lot more of the hatchlings being shown are coming from dual hypo breeding stock, and better bloodlines are more common. So in my opinion the supply numbers are still around the same but the quality has greatly increased. For me that means Im glad I held back. As now I have the confidence to buy and get to see breeders like Solar17 showing not only a great batch of 38 hatchlings (basically all hypo) but pics of the previous yrs batch looking awesome as evidence of the strength of the bloodlines. Like I said Im glad I held back and am really looking forward to whats for sale over the next few mths now that the crazed cash in fest has settled.

 

[zulu]

I do think this is happening already and its a big shame. The obsession that people have with breeding colour morphs, designer this and that just doesn't sit well with me at all. People compare the selective breeding of reptiles with similar practices for dogs/cats etc, but I cannot make that comparison. The difference to me lies in the fact that the species we are breeding are still all out there amongst the wild yonder. Natural colour variations serving a purpose for any particular species. You only have to look at the terrible looking GTPs that are being bred in USA and the bastardisation of species like the Ball Python to know what greed can do to people. Furthermore, breeders simply make up the names to the "morphs" they create, all in the interest of selling more to gullible keepers.

Not enough keepers in Australia have realised what a fantastic oppourtunity the WA licensing system has given us over the past few years. Here you have a system where registered takers are able to collect specimens of many species from the wild, record their location and other relevant data, then introduce these animals into the private market for breeding purposes. This allows breeding of locality-pure animals, bred in captivity as they would likely in the wild. Of all the "Tully", "Proserpine" Jungles, "Tanami" Womas, etc, can you guarantee this locality or are breeders simply naming these animals based on a colouration similarity with an animal they think came from that region.

People like Dave of Pilbara Pythons and Gary of West Aussie Reptiles are a wealth of information and can provide us with animals of known locality when many others are just speculating. This oppourtunity could one day prove very valuable should native populations continue to be decimated.

In theory the takers system could be very good but its run by CALM and they couldnt run a chook raffle,theyve kept banging away at the common species when they should have taken a few hundred then moved onto another,this would have encouraged captive breeding.

 

[beeman]

I do think this is happening already and its a big shame. The obsession that people have with breeding colour morphs, designer this and that just doesn't sit well with me at all. People compare the selective breeding of reptiles with similar practices for dogs/cats etc, but I cannot make that comparison. The difference to me lies in the fact that the species we are breeding are still all out there amongst the wild yonder. Natural colour variations serving a purpose for any particular species. You only have to look at the terrible looking GTPs that are being bred in USA and the bastardisation of species like the Ball Python to know what greed can do to people. Furthermore, breeders simply make up the names to the "morphs" they create, all in the interest of selling more to gullible keepers.

Not enough keepers in Australia have realised what a fantastic oppourtunity the WA licensing system has given us over the past few years. Here you have a system where registered takers are able to collect specimens of many species from the wild, record their location and other relevant data, then introduce these animals into the private market for breeding purposes. This allows breeding of locality-pure animals, bred in captivity as they would likely in the wild. Of all the "Tully", "Proserpine" Jungles, "Tanami" Womas, etc, can you guarantee this locality or are breeders simply naming these animals based on a colouration similarity with an animal they think came from that region.

People like Dave of Pilbara Pythons and Gary of West Aussie Reptiles are a wealth of information and can provide us with animals of known locality when many others are just speculating. This oppourtunity could one day prove very valuable should native populations continue to be decimated.

There are some of us that are working on these lines of WA animals from both suppliers mentioned. Things are progressing well with them and good genuine animals will start to surface soon.

 

[Sock Puppet]

If any of you are going to the Wild Expo dinner, perhaps you could discuss this with SnakeBytes Brian & get his opinion on the issue in the US. I wonder what the demand over there is for a standard wild type Ball Python. I wonder if anyone over there even keeps or breeds standard wild type ball pythons or if they're all lavender spider pinstripes etc etc. Same goes for the other animals like retics, leopard geckos, & corns etc. Or back to the original post, I wonder if they're having trouble moving animals compared to other years.

 

[Scleropages]

It appears to be plenty of reptiles up for sale (as 'for sales' threads are dominating APS at the moment) and they seem to be more older animals then hatchies which is unusual for this time of year......

My question is: Has the past/present economic issues that has been effecting the world in general, finally catching up with our great hobby ???

Why does it appear that people are off loading their animals more and more recently ???

Food for thought..

Maybe its just more people selling on the net?

Coastals 10 years ago where $150ea and still are.It seems to only be the big dollar pythons that have crashed in the last few years.

I really can't see how some people sell the herps they breed for such a hight amount anyway.
I always have people wanting to buy snakes off me , but I don't like selling them :lol:

 

[Waterrat]

I don't believe the slump has anything to do with the economic situation or Christmas spending. There has been enormous influx of newbies in the last three years and most of them now have what they wanted and not only that, many of them are breeding and selling now. Because the inflow of newbies slowed down, so did sales and the market is flooded with common animals. Because people are not selling their offspring, they are not buying. I have number of people saying "I would buy your snakes if only I could sell mine".
Another fact influencing the marked is that we have lost the entire strata of "investors" (right or wrong). No one is investing in reptiles now days with the hope to make money one day.
Lastly, many potential buyers are watching the prices decline and they are waiting for them to drop even further. "One year or two - what's the difference if I can have what I want for extra nothing".

I only hope that this slump is not going to impact on breeders producing quality animals in small numbers. There, I think, is the future. When the trend of "cool" aberrants and designer morphs passes the tide will turn.

 

[Simon_Archibald]

I know tyre kickers are sometimes a waste but I for one will try and get a feel for the seller and if the "vibe" is not there I wont deal with them..if that makes me a tyre kicker the so be it...

Yes, I believe trying to ascertain the "vibe" is considered tyre-kicking ;-)

 

[ShaneBlack]

If you want to make money, breed rodents.

Yeah, i wish people would flood the market with rodents and cut prices in half.

 

[Hsut77]

Having look at U.S web sites it seems the range of prices are at both ends of the extremes. From $20.00 for a 'starter snake' - basic Corn or Ball to multiple thousands for all the new morphs.

Talking to new keepers who buy my rats I get the general feeling that they are the 'brave few' who decided to part with $300 - $500 on an animal they had never kept before, whilst most of them did a lot of research they still did not have the practical experience and were understandably very nervous about keeping their new charge alive. I believe that a lot more people will enter the hobby if the perceived 'risk' of loosing a heap of money if they make a grave mistake is not there.

If any of you are going to the Wild Expo dinner, perhaps you could discuss this with SnakeBytes Brian & get his opinion on the issue in the US. I wonder what the demand over there is for a standard wild type Ball Python. I wonder if anyone over there even keeps or breeds standard wild type ball pythons or if they're all lavender spider pinstripes etc etc. Same goes for the other animals like retics, leopard geckos, & corns etc. Or back to the original post, I wonder if they're having trouble moving animals compared to other years.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Craftman
If the economic situation wasn't a part of the picture, why then has other animals and accessories sales been extremely slow, compared to other seasons as expressed to me by several pet shops?
Surely this isn’t just coincidence?

 

[Waterrat]

Craftman
If the economic situation wasn't a part of the picture, why then has other animals and accessories sales been extremely slow, compared to other seasons as expressed to me by several pet shops?
Surely this isn’t just coincidence?

Dave, I am not aware of the pet shop situation and particularly about sales of other animals but with reptiles, it could be for the same reason, established reptile keepers have what they need and there are relatively fewer newbies coming into the hobby. How many new cages, heaters, etc., people need to buy each year?
I don't want to argue your point, the overall economic situation may well have undesirable impact, particularly when it comes to expanding private collections. Food and electricity is expensive.

By the way, it's Waterrat here. lol

 

[dave8208]

Yeah, i wish people would flood the market with rodents and cut prices in half.

i know a fella with 4 huge freezers full of frozen rats , mice and rabbits..................plus hundreds of breeders and half grown stuff, and he is desperate to offload them.

and as far as supply and demand ..and the likes of Snake Ranch , SXR and others ....this was all talked about and predicted a few years ago , the economic downturn just pushed it along a little quicker and gave us something to blame.

I saw it coming.

And for those who want to expand our "market" , then we should be complaining to NPWS and getting them to allow us to advertise freely in local papers and so on......and allow us to do talks and displays without the over protective garbage that we have to go through to show them.

we are limited to these web sites and the average jo-blow wouldnt know where to look for a reptile. My work mates are always asking me where and how i sell my hatchlings....just like they did last year and the year before

 

[Slytherin]

This has been an interesting read, and only recently, I have noticed more mature pythons being advertised for sale often with full setups (used) in the newspaper and wondered why. :? Out of curiosity, I have been reading the reptile section in the classified and just noticed this.

I came to the conclusion (right, wrong or otherwise), that it seems that people may be getting sick of their mature python or finding a big carpet python a handful to manage (food, cost or strength), and selling up. I found myself concerned for these pythons and hoped that they would find another caring home with responsible owners (like dogs, would buyers prefer youngsters over mature animals?) As it was mentioned earlier, could it be 'cooling off' from impulse buys? Or it could be just a simple case of selling off an old breeder by a backyard hobbyist?

That's my thoughts from my observations.

Thanks Yommy for an interesting and mature thread

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Sorry Waterrat, it all gets a bit confusing at times for a Kiwi surrounded by spinifix and desert heat for so long.

As far as marketing expansion goes, we all know that exposure is the key. After all how many people suddenly think about keeping a reptile once they have handled someone python for the first time or from simply seeing a great looking set up in a lounge room or pet shop. I guess this only gives the reptile expo's so much more importance.
Hell, I think we now need one in W.A. (Imagine the logistical nightmare of getting that happening)

Regards Dave

 

[paulaandnorbert]

As far as marketing expansion goes, we all know that exposure is the key. After all how many people suddenly think about keeping a reptile once they have handled someone python for the first time or from simply seeing a great looking set up in a lounge room or pet shop. I guess this only gives the reptile expo's so much more importance.

This was the point that I was trying to make in my earlier post.

I wonder if Garthnfay is aware of, or if Illawarra breeders and reptile supply stockists noticed an increase in activity as a result of the reptile show last year?

As I said, we have purchased a number of reptiles (as have one of our friends as well) as a direct result of going to the show.

Nothing beats seeing them up close and talking to expert owners about the realities of keeping reptiles as pets.

And it is hard to image too many impulse buyers at the show, considering no one is really selling animals there and not too many potential buyers will walk in with the required licence.

Norbert

 

[Slytherin]

From a buyers viewpoint, I had been interested in pythons for a while but never thought that the average person could actually keep one in your house. It wasn't until I found out that you can get frozen rodents (the prospect of feeding a live rodent was what really put me off), and that it was within my reach, that I seriously started researching the aspects of keeping a python. What really 'sold me' was a trip to Reptile City and seeing the reptiles there and seeing just how placid a well chosen python could be...and now I have Snakey a placid 2year old female Murray Darling Carpet Python!!

I think they keys are...exposure and education.

 

[spongebob]

Yes over supply is probably now being the main factor IMO. However I do support the argument that newbies can be put off by the local equipment prices. We dont have the same competition between importers/supplies as overseas.

For example I've recently set up a turtle pond and wanted to buy a commercial pond filter. A suitable model was available here for $1300 (same price at a number of outlets in different states). I bought exactly the same model for a quarter of the price in the UK. Freight cost almost the same as buying the filter but all up it was less than half the local price. Now this is the same for most other pet products. If the trade side of the hobby really want to support expansion they really need to face up to this. OK the beardie/python or what ever may be quite expensive but setting up a suitable enclosure using pet shop products is exorbitant.

 

[Brent]

slow -very slow times in QLD.

I don't believe the slump has anything to do with the economic situation or Christmas spending. There has been enormous influx of newbies in the last three years and most of them now have what they wanted and not only that, many of them are breeding and selling now. Because the inflow of newbies slowed down, so did sales and the market is flooded with common animals. Because people are not selling their offspring, they are not buying. I have number of people saying "I would buy your snakes if only I could sell mine".
Another fact influencing the marked is that we have lost the entire strata of "investors" (right or wrong). No one is investing in reptiles now days with the hope to make money one day.
Lastly, many potential buyers are watching the prices decline and they are waiting for them to drop even further. "One year or two - what's the difference if I can have what I want for extra nothing".

I only hope that this slump is not going to impact on breeders producing quality animals in small numbers. There, I think, is the future. When the trend of "cool" aberrants and designer morphs passes the tide will turn.

I agree Waterrat and,, I believe that,,,

'times are slow' - yes - More keepers have an full and total understanding of how to breed reptiles now and we have ended up with a lots of hatchies and common reptiles this last 2 seasons and anyone can breed reptiles now that is fine.
*I will continue to keep and enjoy all of my pythons as I have always done over the last 25yrs -- I have never breed all of my pythons due to the above in mind.
as stated ,, we have ended up with too many animals for sale this season and there are not enough buyers here in QLD.
I will continue to manage my breeding projects in the future to cater for the current market .
it has been nice to breed pythons
and I have read here about guys freezing hatchies that will not sell very sad,
well I do have grave concerns for the future !

 

[CodeRed]

Interesting point that this oversupply will result in freezing excess hatchies. That's pretty sad for the hatchies in question but overall it will benefit the reptile market. Just think, if it doesnt feed first go, FREEZE IT. Or if its a bit fugly, FREEZE IT. Or even if it isnt the best possible representation of the lineage, FREEZE IT !! What we end up with are stronger , and nicer (more desirable) lines.

 

[spongebob]

Interesting point that this oversupply will result in freezing excess hatchies. That's pretty sad for the hatchies in question but overall it will benefit the reptile market. Just think, if it doesnt feed first go, FREEZE IT. Or if its a bit fugly, FREEZE IT. Or even if it isnt the best possible representation of the lineage, FREEZE IT !! What we end up with are stronger , and nicer (more desirable) lines.

Of course to ensure quality lines 'culling' will be come more prevailent. Isn't that what keeping goanas it all about!