yes i admitted that i was a sarcastic so and so in my first and second post and appologised for it. That doesn't make up for it but hopefully i will learn not to be.
Enrichments in click clacks- You stated put small branches with leaves that have different smells, In a click clack you would be refering to twigs not branches and then you contradict yourself later in your post by saying that wooden items can rot and raise humidity ect. also dowel is made of wood.
a click clack is the size of a shoe box- if you packed it full of twigs and leaves it would not provide as much enrichment opportunities as a larger cage.
I didnt say 'pack it with sticks' i said a couple, to give different smells. This is obviously different to what you are thinking. Dowel is wood yes, but being smooth and straigh it has the ability to be pulled out of the tank to be quickly washed off with F10, dried, then put back in the tank. logs or similar that have bumpy surfaces and crevaces dont dry as fast, and give bacteria a better chance to grow.
no, but you did say enrich with branches and leaves and they are not smooth and easily washed so the contadiction holds. appropriatly cleaned is what i said in my first post regarding my preferences and natural furnishings can be appropriatly cleaned, Dowel may look straight and smooth but is no better at bacterial inhibition than a stick. my reference to packing with sticks was to demonstrate that a few sticks in a box will never match the enrichment that can be provided in a large cage
Mulch or bark as substrate- I am yet to see a plastic container with a paper towel dry quickly when a water bowl is splilt (which is much more likely in a little plastic box than a three foot fish tank or similar due to the portable nature of a click clack)- Breeders choice or mulch would have a higher absorbancy rate than a few sheets of paper towel and looks a hell of a lot better.
Breeders choice as a substrate is asking for trouble. it is dusty, and most people tend to 'spot clean' which doesnt always rid all of the faecal matter or wetness, giving bacteria a chance to grow (RI, scale rot, mold). Also, breeders choice contains staples and metallic paper aswell, so if one pellet with a staple got ingested, imagine the havoc that would wreak!!
Paper towel is easily changed and in a smaller container it is easier to see the moisture if the snake has tipped the bowl. Simple, easy, controlled.
Breeders choice is my choice, i use the bark to prevent access to the bc. But that is my choice. You can use whatever, but i still believe that a substrate is better than paper towel. How does paper towel enrich a species that like to dig? or a death adder that likes to ambush? or a geck or snake that likes in exfoliated bark? Replicating an animals natural environment so that natural behaviour can be observed should be paramount.
In a bigger cage a snake is not forced to sit in its wet substrate. It has a hundred other choices available than in the wet patch.
appropriatley sized mulch wont get stuck or ingested as you would notice a bit of 50mm bark stuck to a pinky! there are a hundred other pros and cons for bark or mulch but i wont bother listing them- all substrates have plusses and minuses- select them according your preference- i use breeders choice as a bottom layer and cover it in 50-75 mm bark chips for looks. That is just me, my argument is for a larger cage with more structure than is possible in a click clack.
Real plants- use or dont use ,i personally dont unless it is in my turtles or if i was to set up a frog tank, however many people do use them and as long as the problems are addressed good, fine- there are many realistic fake plants that would trick a botanist these days- I am about to buy a three foot blackboy for my python cage that is fake- tip is- it will fit in my cage but would struggle in a click clack.
you dont have to put a blackboy in every setup do you... :lol: there ARE smaller fake plants available!! now thats just being ignorant on your part.
No - you dont have to put a black boy in every cage it was more an explanation of the available space and enrichment opportunities than a couple of leaves in a lunch box. Is it not desirable to have a larger cage? Are you against providing the animals with more space?
cleaning big cages is hard work!
it is fiddly, takes about one hour to clean my big cage once a week and will take longer on the monthly clean. But a dedicated keeper will clean it. I believe that the added time it takes me to clean my cage is well worth it for the benefits it provides.
Exactly!! not many people would put the required amount of time or effort into it, therefore creating a BAD environment for thier snakes in the end anyway.
I am sorry but i do expect that people should be encouraged and taught to do what is right for their animals and pets- if someone cannot be bothered to provide the best for their animals then they should not have them. If not many people would put the required time into providing a proper cage then those people should get a pet rock. I expect that Senior keepers should encourage cages that are larger and better and tell peopl up front what they need to do- Lets not encourage a lesser standard to people just so it is easier for them to do.
I would say that i am creating a far superior cage for my animals than a click clack will offer ever hands down. a poor keeper with bad habits will suffer deaths in a big cage or a little cage. a good keeper will be dedicated enough to deal with the disadvantages a big cage comes with. John weigel stated some cage sizes in his book and i believe that these should be adopted as a minimum.
so you have a degree and have written papers have you? :lol:
I was not aware that i had to have a degree to have an opinion- I still subscribe to the older information that stated cages should be bigger and furnished to replicate a natural environment and i draw upon the information and knowledge that i have learned and built up over many years keeping and observing others- People have been keeping snakes longer than click clacks have been invented and have kept them well. I think this latest fad is a bad direction and has been encouraged by people who have an interest in promoting how easy and cheap it is to house a reptile thus encouraging more ownership and thus more sales.
Hell i reckon i could fit fifty macs in click clacks in my hatchlings tank- that would equal 50 more sales.
If you are stuck on click clacks for their ease and what ever, what is stopping people from encouraging the use of a big one instead of the sandwhich size- Plastic tubs are available is sizes that i could comfortably fit in. A tighter fitting lid could easily be constructed from the scrap bin at a hardware( as demonstrated at mac herps show) and the larger size would allow for more structure and habitat- natural or not, plastic or wood, tile or rock. what ever
stuck on click clacks, or choose them as a higher hygenic standard/ better environment for healthier hatchling snakes? hmmmmmmmmm
Previous answers cover this.
My point was size and quality of the animals environment. People have already demonstrated that cages dont have to be expensive, I have stated alternatives to sandwich sized cages. as i stated before we should encourage younger keepers to do the best they can , not something that is fine, or will do, or is standard.
I agree with you, it is about the keepers standards. But if you are telling NEW keepers to ad all this stuff to thier tanks, them not knowing how to properly disinfect and clean the tank, you are just asking for them to give thier snakes diseases associated to incorrect standards of hygene. If they know how to properly do that, then fine. But im saying majority wont.
Teach, publise and encourage- if there were as many stickys and posts on these subjects as there are on bloody click clacks people would- I think that most people are dedicated enough.
Look at the work ash put into hers and the dedication she showed- if the standard was a larger cage ect and thats what people posted and did, i am sure that she would copy and do. She has simply adopted the current trend- Lets change that to a more spacious cage
even if it is a supersize click clack! it is still bigger and allows more opportunity
and as for a slow death. My oldest captive i have had for longer than you have been alive nearly and the i have others that are 10 + years in my care, so It either works, or it is a bloody slow death.
Im not saying you personally have bad hygene protocol, however most new keepers wont know what to do with the proper cleaning process, so thier snakes will most probably suffer until they do develop these skills. So for new keepers, it is better for them to have something they can properly look after untill they develop said skills.
Thank you I realise that, but new keepers if taught properly will know what to do and do it. That is where this site and herp clubs come in handy- the ahs used to run a course when lothar voight was pres called pybags- it was free, it taught people how to keep, breed and had a feild trip where every person built a cage and a heat box and a hide- at the end of a comprehensive course that had speaker like glenn shea ect- all passers were presented with a hatchling coastal or mac that was donated by a member of this site.
Courses like this effectivly taught a new generation of keepers the dedication required to keep. I think it is all about the education.
Enrichments in click clacks- You stated put small branches with leaves that have different smells, In a click clack you would be refering to twigs not branches and then you contradict yourself later in your post by saying that wooden items can rot and raise humidity ect. also dowel is made of wood.
a click clack is the size of a shoe box- if you packed it full of twigs and leaves it would not provide as much enrichment opportunities as a larger cage.
I didnt say 'pack it with sticks' i said a couple, to give different smells. This is obviously different to what you are thinking. Dowel is wood yes, but being smooth and straigh it has the ability to be pulled out of the tank to be quickly washed off with F10, dried, then put back in the tank. logs or similar that have bumpy surfaces and crevaces dont dry as fast, and give bacteria a better chance to grow.
no, but you did say enrich with branches and leaves and they are not smooth and easily washed so the contadiction holds. appropriatly cleaned is what i said in my first post regarding my preferences and natural furnishings can be appropriatly cleaned, Dowel may look straight and smooth but is no better at bacterial inhibition than a stick. my reference to packing with sticks was to demonstrate that a few sticks in a box will never match the enrichment that can be provided in a large cage
Mulch or bark as substrate- I am yet to see a plastic container with a paper towel dry quickly when a water bowl is splilt (which is much more likely in a little plastic box than a three foot fish tank or similar due to the portable nature of a click clack)- Breeders choice or mulch would have a higher absorbancy rate than a few sheets of paper towel and looks a hell of a lot better.
Breeders choice as a substrate is asking for trouble. it is dusty, and most people tend to 'spot clean' which doesnt always rid all of the faecal matter or wetness, giving bacteria a chance to grow (RI, scale rot, mold). Also, breeders choice contains staples and metallic paper aswell, so if one pellet with a staple got ingested, imagine the havoc that would wreak!!
Paper towel is easily changed and in a smaller container it is easier to see the moisture if the snake has tipped the bowl. Simple, easy, controlled.
Breeders choice is my choice, i use the bark to prevent access to the bc. But that is my choice. You can use whatever, but i still believe that a substrate is better than paper towel. How does paper towel enrich a species that like to dig? or a death adder that likes to ambush? or a geck or snake that likes in exfoliated bark? Replicating an animals natural environment so that natural behaviour can be observed should be paramount.
In a bigger cage a snake is not forced to sit in its wet substrate. It has a hundred other choices available than in the wet patch.
appropriatley sized mulch wont get stuck or ingested as you would notice a bit of 50mm bark stuck to a pinky! there are a hundred other pros and cons for bark or mulch but i wont bother listing them- all substrates have plusses and minuses- select them according your preference- i use breeders choice as a bottom layer and cover it in 50-75 mm bark chips for looks. That is just me, my argument is for a larger cage with more structure than is possible in a click clack.
Real plants- use or dont use ,i personally dont unless it is in my turtles or if i was to set up a frog tank, however many people do use them and as long as the problems are addressed good, fine- there are many realistic fake plants that would trick a botanist these days- I am about to buy a three foot blackboy for my python cage that is fake- tip is- it will fit in my cage but would struggle in a click clack.
you dont have to put a blackboy in every setup do you... :lol: there ARE smaller fake plants available!! now thats just being ignorant on your part.
No - you dont have to put a black boy in every cage it was more an explanation of the available space and enrichment opportunities than a couple of leaves in a lunch box. Is it not desirable to have a larger cage? Are you against providing the animals with more space?
cleaning big cages is hard work!
it is fiddly, takes about one hour to clean my big cage once a week and will take longer on the monthly clean. But a dedicated keeper will clean it. I believe that the added time it takes me to clean my cage is well worth it for the benefits it provides.
Exactly!! not many people would put the required amount of time or effort into it, therefore creating a BAD environment for thier snakes in the end anyway.
I am sorry but i do expect that people should be encouraged and taught to do what is right for their animals and pets- if someone cannot be bothered to provide the best for their animals then they should not have them. If not many people would put the required time into providing a proper cage then those people should get a pet rock. I expect that Senior keepers should encourage cages that are larger and better and tell peopl up front what they need to do- Lets not encourage a lesser standard to people just so it is easier for them to do.
I would say that i am creating a far superior cage for my animals than a click clack will offer ever hands down. a poor keeper with bad habits will suffer deaths in a big cage or a little cage. a good keeper will be dedicated enough to deal with the disadvantages a big cage comes with. John weigel stated some cage sizes in his book and i believe that these should be adopted as a minimum.
so you have a degree and have written papers have you? :lol:
I was not aware that i had to have a degree to have an opinion- I still subscribe to the older information that stated cages should be bigger and furnished to replicate a natural environment and i draw upon the information and knowledge that i have learned and built up over many years keeping and observing others- People have been keeping snakes longer than click clacks have been invented and have kept them well. I think this latest fad is a bad direction and has been encouraged by people who have an interest in promoting how easy and cheap it is to house a reptile thus encouraging more ownership and thus more sales.
Hell i reckon i could fit fifty macs in click clacks in my hatchlings tank- that would equal 50 more sales.
If you are stuck on click clacks for their ease and what ever, what is stopping people from encouraging the use of a big one instead of the sandwhich size- Plastic tubs are available is sizes that i could comfortably fit in. A tighter fitting lid could easily be constructed from the scrap bin at a hardware( as demonstrated at mac herps show) and the larger size would allow for more structure and habitat- natural or not, plastic or wood, tile or rock. what ever
stuck on click clacks, or choose them as a higher hygenic standard/ better environment for healthier hatchling snakes? hmmmmmmmmm
Previous answers cover this.
My point was size and quality of the animals environment. People have already demonstrated that cages dont have to be expensive, I have stated alternatives to sandwich sized cages. as i stated before we should encourage younger keepers to do the best they can , not something that is fine, or will do, or is standard.
I agree with you, it is about the keepers standards. But if you are telling NEW keepers to ad all this stuff to thier tanks, them not knowing how to properly disinfect and clean the tank, you are just asking for them to give thier snakes diseases associated to incorrect standards of hygene. If they know how to properly do that, then fine. But im saying majority wont.
Teach, publise and encourage- if there were as many stickys and posts on these subjects as there are on bloody click clacks people would- I think that most people are dedicated enough.
Look at the work ash put into hers and the dedication she showed- if the standard was a larger cage ect and thats what people posted and did, i am sure that she would copy and do. She has simply adopted the current trend- Lets change that to a more spacious cage
even if it is a supersize click clack! it is still bigger and allows more opportunity
and as for a slow death. My oldest captive i have had for longer than you have been alive nearly and the i have others that are 10 + years in my care, so It either works, or it is a bloody slow death.
Im not saying you personally have bad hygene protocol, however most new keepers wont know what to do with the proper cleaning process, so thier snakes will most probably suffer until they do develop these skills. So for new keepers, it is better for them to have something they can properly look after untill they develop said skills.
Thank you I realise that, but new keepers if taught properly will know what to do and do it. That is where this site and herp clubs come in handy- the ahs used to run a course when lothar voight was pres called pybags- it was free, it taught people how to keep, breed and had a feild trip where every person built a cage and a heat box and a hide- at the end of a comprehensive course that had speaker like glenn shea ect- all passers were presented with a hatchling coastal or mac that was donated by a member of this site.
Courses like this effectivly taught a new generation of keepers the dedication required to keep. I think it is all about the education.
