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Octane

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Active discussion seems to have stopped on this topic which I believe is in no way finalised.

Without starting another enclosure size debate I am concerned that mandatory minimum cage/enclosure sizes may still be implemented.

Animal welfare is paramount but the thing that concerns me about an acceptable size for an enclosure (for a given species) is who decides?

  • Is it a consultation group of herpetologists and other interested/experienced parties with decades of combined highly specialised experience and knowledge?
  • Is it animal welfare groups (mainstream or extremist) who may have some level of knowledge about animal welfare in general and limited experience in herpetological husbandry/welfare or the extremists which believe reptiles or amphibians should not be kept in captivity at all?
  • Or; Is it a government department that wishes to implement according to it's own departmental agenda or, is it the views of persons holding positions of influence within the department?
If someone with up to date accurate knowledge could provide information on the current status of this matter it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for reading this far.

Octane

P.S. For the interstate keepers be very careful if it happens in NSW it will set a precedent for other states and territories to be able to follow.
 
Is nobody else here worried about having laws put in place which would mean your current enclosure is deemed way to small and will have to be replaced?

Who here has the money to replace all the housing/enclosures for their collection? (Yes to all that have tub rack systems or other enclosures they may effectively be deemed to small and have to be replaced with compliant enclosures at your cost)

As an example only what are you going to do if they may make it law an enclosure needs to be at least 1.5 times as long a the snake it houses and .75 or three quarters the length as floor space.

In print the 1.5 and .75 numbers don't look that bad, do they?
No, but in practical terms working off this example, if you have a two metre coastal carpet. It would need an enclosure with a floor space larger than the area of a double bed mattress to comply (same width and 1.5 times the length of the mattress).
Now go and have a look at your bed and think of how many enclosures of that floor space you will be able to fit in your herp room.

DECCW are refusing to comment and I am more than concerned.



Regards

Octane
 
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To be honest most would only care if they tried to limit apathy and even then they wouldn't be worried enough to complain.

Is nobody else here worried about having laws put in place which would mean your current enclosure is deemed way to small and will have to be replaced?

Regards

Octane
 
Over 150 views and only 5 replies, well now 6, obviously people don't care!
Personally if it means I have to change sizes I change sizes, it may cost me $100 an enclosure max as all heating supplies can be removed and put into new enclosure, so a couple of grand to change sizes is no problem and the guys with 100's even 1000's of snakes have the cash as they breed their pythons so 1 hatchie per pair of snakes will easily cover the conversion, yes they may need more room to house these new bigger enclosure but that's life deal with it, some people may find their enclosures are to big :shock:
At the end of the day will they police it as they do now with our record books? if so keep your snakes in whatever size you like and if on that rare occasion you get inspected they will give you a certain period of time to fix the problem!
 
NSW Minimum Cage Sizes

I do not normally reply to many forums, however this one is close to my heart. I am very concerned with the cage sizes Department of Enviroment, Climate Change and Water (DECCW) are trying to bring into the "Draft Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Reptiles". I for one am not like bax155 or boa who it would appear have no problem with an organisation imposing their idea of what is appropriate without constructive consultation with groups / individuals who have been striving for a code of practice over the last ten years.
Everyone has a right to an opinion, that is what forums are all about, however trivializing, and apathy will just supply ammunition to the powers that be. Some maybe unaware of the people who have commented or visited this site that there have been some very intense and hastily organized meetings (outside of the selected few who have been invited by DECCW to comment) to at least have a voice in this matter and make the DECCW aware of the concerns of private reptile keepers. A considerable amount of time has been spent by a number of commercial and private keepers to provide comment on the Departments proposals whilst also being seen as voice with substance.
As comments by OCTANE have pointed out, cage sizes can become unrealistic. I am not saying that there should not be a minimum size and the wellbeing of our reptiles is uttermost, however there has to be practicality. Throwing money towards upgrading enclosures and assuming that everyone can cover these costs by breeding is drawing a very long bow. In the current group that am a member and in groups that I have been a member in other states, most are private, one off or non commercial breeders.
Last thought from me is that most everyday reptile and frog owners keep them because they love them as pets and don't have them to breed with and make money. Most couldn't afford nor in most cases have the space for some cage sizes DECCW are trying to include in the draft. We all need to have our say and make sure DECCW doesn’t steamroll and impose cage sizes, because if they do it will make the keeping of these wonderful creatures outside of the reach of most current licensed people.

Lizardsandme
 
The work continues guys, despite silence from DECCW.
 
Of course DECCW will reference the current scientific/veterinary opinions on this matter wont they? I mean a code without such underpinings wouldn't be kosher would it? They're not thinking to pluck something out of the air are they?
 
I think you misunderstood my post, I have a huge problem with what is being considered. I was referring to the general lack of interest from members which I'm afraid is why these things usually get passed into law.

I for one am not like bax155 or boa who it would appear have no problem with an organisation imposing their idea of what is appropriate without constructive consultation with groups / individuals who have been striving for a code of practice over the last ten years.
Lizardsandme
 
If the hobby had not created the trend of people keeping snakes in lunch boxes, these measures may not have been required.

Bring them on i say! I am a fan of what is expected to come as I hate click clacks and tubs. They are only good for lunches and keeping cakes fresh.

These opinions are probably not popular, but they were not meant to be.

Regards
 
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If the hobby had not created the trend of people keeping snakes in lunch boxes, these measures may not have been required.

Bring them on i say! I am a fan of what is expected to come as I hate click clacks and tubs. They are only good for lunches and keeping cakes fresh.

These opinions are probably not popular, but they were not meant to be.

Regards

so u have a clutch of 20 hatchies that have to go into proper enclosures, rather than rack/tubs/click clack setup??? Dont have an issue either way, but common sense needs to play a big part (in a govt organisation there is no such thing as common sense)
 
as i have stated on other threads- tubs and racks should only be used for temp, short term accomdation such as breeders and quarantine and the like. Most keepers who use click clacks are not breeders and dont use them as temp accomodation, they use them as their primary enclosure.

Trolling through forums and seeing Stickys that encourage click clacks, and pics of peoples cages , I am not suprised that these new regs are being drafted.
 
I do not normally reply to many forums, however this one is close to my heart. I am very concerned with the cage sizes Department of Enviroment, Climate Change and Water (DECCW) are trying to bring into the "Draft Code of Practice for the Private Keeping of Reptiles". I for one am not like bax155 or boa who it would appear have no problem with an organisation imposing their idea of what is appropriate without constructive consultation with groups / individuals who have been striving for a code of practice over the last ten years.
Everyone has a right to an opinion, that is what forums are all about, however trivializing, and apathy will just supply ammunition to the powers that be. Some maybe unaware of the people who have commented or visited this site that there have been some very intense and hastily organized meetings (outside of the selected few who have been invited by DECCW to comment) to at least have a voice in this matter and make the DECCW aware of the concerns of private reptile keepers. A considerable amount of time has been spent by a number of commercial and private keepers to provide comment on the Departments proposals whilst also being seen as voice with substance.
As comments by OCTANE have pointed out, cage sizes can become unrealistic. I am not saying that there should not be a minimum size and the wellbeing of our reptiles is uttermost, however there has to be practicality. Throwing money towards upgrading enclosures and assuming that everyone can cover these costs by breeding is drawing a very long bow. In the current group that am a member and in groups that I have been a member in other states, most are private, one off or non commercial breeders.
Last thought from me is that most everyday reptile and frog owners keep them because they love them as pets and don't have them to breed with and make money. Most couldn't afford nor in most cases have the space for some cage sizes DECCW are trying to include in the draft. We all need to have our say and make sure DECCW doesn’t steamroll and impose cage sizes, because if they do it will make the keeping of these wonderful creatures outside of the reach of most current licensed people.

Lizardsandme
Let me short hand your post so people with short attention spans like myself can stay awake, "blah blah blah" ah that was simple, read my post I'll keep my snakes in what ever I like as it's not like decc will ever come to my place again!!
I highlighted my favourite part in red, if people are passionate they will find the money to keep their passion alive and kicking, this new law may see the hobby getting rid of some people in it for the wrong reason ;) thats my 2 cents worth, no over written post with big words pulled from a dictionary can change my mind :p
 
If the hobby had not created the trend of people keeping snakes in lunch boxes, these measures may not have been required.

Bring them on i say! I am a fan of what is expected to come as I hate click clacks and tubs. They are only good for lunches and keeping cakes fresh.

These opinions are probably not popular, but they were not meant to be.

Regards

l agree , the practice of keeping snakes in tubs / racks is what is bringing this law into being . People that wish to own more snakes than they can house properly justify tubs as big enough for the snake to curl up and sleep in . All my pythons have big enclosures with hides , perches and large water tubs all of which they use regularly . l beleive in the old rule of at least half the length of the snake in one direction .
 
l agree , the practice of keeping snakes in tubs / racks is what is bringing this law into being . People that wish to own more snakes than they can house properly justify tubs as big enough for the snake to curl up and sleep in . All my pythons have big enclosures with hides , perches and large water tubs all of which they use regularly . l beleive in the old rule of at least half the length of the snake in one direction .

It has more to do with bringing in legislation to enable petshops in NSW to trade in reptiles not the use of tubs.BTW your old rule of half the length of a snake in one direction will be woefully inadequate when it comes to the cage size proposals.
 
Over 150 views and only 5 replies, well now 6, obviously people don't care!

I find this a bit strange.......just because members haven't contributed to this thread means that they don't care?
I am pretty sure no final proposal has been made as yet.....bit hard to comment until we know exactly what they are proposing...atm everything is just hearsay.
 
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I find this a bit strange.......just because members haven't contributed to this thread means that they don't care?
I am pretty sure no final proposal has been made as yet.....bit hard to comment until we know exactly what they are proposing...atm everything is just hearsay.

Generally speaking, when a final proposal has been made it is already too late to make any contributions. Now is the time.

I agree with Jungletrans and Markars. Our hobby (if members on our forum are a true representation of the majority of keepers) has too much of an onus on how many animals you have without much scrutiny on housing conditions. N00bs are led to beleive that click clack and tub rack systems are appropriate conditions to keep adults of large species permanently. I think a law is required but you guys need to have a hand in on the negotiations.

The NT already has laws. Enclosures must be large enough for the snake to stretch out its full body length, access to a hide and water. These laws aren't enforced but they do exist. I wonder if laws in other states are going to be followed by the law makers?
 
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