NSW Minimum Cage Sizes any update?

[Herc]

I for one find it concerning that there are members here that think these draft new requirements if passed (although there is a major legal issue here) are/will be a good thing.... Don't be fooled people, nothing good will come out of what DECCW are trying to slip in under the radar. To give an example, for those of us that keep monitors under these "rules" and I use that term very lightly If you have for eg one lace monitor and or two spencers monitors then you/we have to provide and enclosure that will take up the space of a standard single car garage. Don't fall into the trap of looking at the size for juvies, you need to look at the adult sizes. I know for a fact that under these conditions I myself would need to suddenly come up with an area of almost 1/4 acre block just to "legally" house what animals I have here according to their cage sizes for each animal. As with many other keepers, I rent therefore can not make structural changes to the property nor do I have (or will likely ever have) the money to build such a facility. Add to this some idiots idea that those of us that keep venomous snakes should/must label each cage with the species and number of animals in each cage. I for one WILL NOT ever do this again, this just provides those lowlife scums that steal animals with a clear shopping list of animals kept. Not going to happen. DECCW's excuse for this was "incase emergency services need to access the room in an emergency they need to know whats in the cages, well as a fire fighter this is rubbish. Most everyday fire fighters, ambos and even cops have no idea what they are looking at when it comes to venomous snakes so this won't help. Add to this a thing called S.O.P's which govern what personel can or can not do, one of which is knowingly put themselves in a situation they are not qualified to handle. My point is any house fires I attend if the resident keeps reptiles I am authorised to enter and assess the situation as I have the relevant licence to remove problem reptiles in NSW. Therefore the rest of the crew keep clear of that particular area untill its clear to be safe for them to do their job. As someone else has pointed out, if this starts here it will open the doors for other states to follow and don't think that it will stop at reptiles. If passed rest assured that these "welfare" groups will run with this and it won't be long before they try to ban reptile keeping altogether or set a minimum size requirement for backyards to keep other pets like dogs in. Once this ball starts, it won't stop in a hurry. I like many others simply don't have the room to accomodate the size of cages they are pushing. Don't forget these cage sizes are floor space and extra levels do not count towards the area of the cage either... we need to stop it now, I am not one to let a pencil pusher dictate to me how to keep the animals I have been keeping for the past 30 years.

 

[wokka]

It is interesting to note the distrust which appears evident between the reptile keeping community and the authorities, presumably the NSW DECC. The draft Code on Exhibition has no minimum sizes but rather suggested guidelines. The reptile community seems to interpret silence from DECC, as plotting behind the scenes. How does DECC interpret comment on the exibited Code ? Do they consider only, the few hundred comments made on the exhibited Code or do they take on booard the silent majority, of some 1000's of keepers, who by their silence endorse the draft plan?
There certainly seems to be a real lack of distrust in the less than open formulation of the code!

 

[Chris1]

i think its great that theres gonna be laws giving the critters a decent amount of space, its disgraceful keeping them in small tubs just cos its allowed.

 

[Herc]

Wokka, I attended the meeting when the draft was launched, the goose from DECCW was pushing for minimum sizes despite what the draft read as. What the committee involved with this and the pushers from DECCW want are 2 very different things, and kid you not if even the "guidlines" get through it will not stop there, they will change them into conditions and we wont have a say in it at all. I am all for the animals well being and health etc, but what is often overlooked is the fact that a great deal of species do not require a huge amount of room, yes enough to live comfortably but not some of the sizes they want. I know also that they are pushing for the same cage sizes as imposed on exhibitors from DPI, even DPI told DECCW not to go with their sizing as it was to big in most cases. ( I was informed by someone in the know with all this that DECCW said they were going ahead with this no matter what we want) What was evident to me from that meeting is the people pushing this from the dept side want to extend what they believe their powers to already be to enter your property and search it. I don't trust them at all.

 

[Hetty]

Wokka, no one cares if there's minimum "guidelines" but everything that has come through suggests they won't be guidelines, but mandatory minimum cage sizes.

Silence does not equal endorsement.

 

[wokka]

Wokka, I attended the meeting when the draft was launched, the goose from DECCW was pushing for minimum sizes despite what the draft read as. What the committee involved with this and the pushers from DECCW want are 2 very different things, and kid you not if even the "guidlines" get through it will not stop there, they will change them into conditions and we wont have a say in it at all. I am all for the animals well being and health etc, but what is often overlooked is the fact that a great deal of species do not require a huge amount of room, yes enough to live comfortably but not some of the sizes they want. I know also that they are pushing for the same cage sizes as imposed on exhibitors from DPI, even DPI told DECCW not to go with their sizing as it was to big in most cases. ( I was informed by someone in the know with all this that DECCW said they were going ahead with this no matter what we want) What was evident to me from that meeting is the people pushing this from the dept side want to extend what they believe their powers to already be to enter your property and search it. I don't trust them at all.

I agree that many of the non reptile keeping community seem tothink, without having had any experience, that big is good. Whilst i dont agree with keeping animals in the smallest cage possible there are many cases where big cages are detimental to the well being of the occupants particularly hatchoes.

 

[Hetty]

Wokka, this is what we're worried about. The DECC want to impose mandatory minimum cage sizes, some of the sizes that have been discussed will be to the detriment of some animals, and the DECC will enforce it. That's why we don't trust them.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Some of you may know the story of the Trojan Horse...

 

[ShaunMorelia]

Some of you may know the story of the Trojan Horse...

Trojan Horse?
Isn't that like the flu or something?

 

[Hetty]

You're suggesting we send a giant gift-wrapped horse full of soldiers to the DECC building?

It's tempting, but I don't think it would solve the problem.

 

[Herc]

Wokka, this is what we're worried about. The DECC want to impose mandatory minimum cage sizes, some of the sizes that have been discussed will be to the detriment of some animals, and the DECC will enforce it. That's why we don't trust them.

After all they are just another Government Department, how can we trust them???? They're not exactly going to come out and admit their real motives are they...

 

[Pythoninfinite]

The Trojan Horse was welcomed as a magnificent gift to the city of Troy, from their enemies, the Greeks. It was dragged in through the gates... but it contained Greek soldiers, who, under cover of darkness, emerged to plunder.

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts...

 

[ShaunMorelia]

ahhh like that movie troy

 

[Bushfire]

I wouldn't trust DECCW either. This is where I can see it all going:

We will get enforceable minimum cage sizes, most probably those on the exhibitors code. With this in place pet shops will be allowed to sell reptiles. As DECCW doesn't have the regulatory authority for animal welfare issues and already struggling on inspections, the authority for inspections would be expanded to include officers of the RSPCA (after all they have more inspectors, and can enforce animal welfare). This will free up DECCW from the huge task on enforcement in regard to wildlife, which is starting to get away from their primary focus and taking to much $$, and in terms of keeping native wildlife they will more so be just a regulatory figure. In this case DECCW still take your money, issue licenses and all that, but RSPCA will do the inspections and enforce the legislation that DECCW write. Think it wont happen?? I wouldn't like it but when I stand back abit and take in exactly whats happening, thats the possible outcome I can see.

If the animal welfare groups win this battle, that will only encourage them to achieve more ambitious goals like more restrictions banning so called 'dangerous' animals and then banning wildlife altogether. They are a powerful lobby group and this legislation / code proves that DECCW are starting to hear them over expert advice.

 

[Waterrat]

That's a plausible theory Bushfire but I honestly believe that the RSPCA will not touch it unless they get paid as they are already underfunded and short-staffed. I can't see the DECCW funding RSPCA inspectors. Just my thought.

 

[Southside Morelia]

LMAO...I'm sure most don't get it!!
The rule if it comes to fruition is a joke....I agree that a suitably sized enclosure for the animal to stretch, move around & exercise is adequate and should be mandatory anything over that is an overkill..IMO

To be honest most would only care if they tried to limit apathy and even then they wouldn't be worried enough to complain.

 

[reptile_mad]

I hope that these guidelines/minimums don't get introduced as all it will do is throw the hobby into a reverse direction detering newcomers and resulting in it becoming a hobby for the "elites", but if the cage sizes are unrealistic, won't this just push more people to go off license and why people start keeping off license why not go all the way and get us some nice exotics to complement the collection?

 

[Ramsayi]

I hope that these guidelines/minimums don't get introduced as all it will do is throw the hobby into a reverse direction detering newcomers and resulting in it becoming a hobby for the "elites", but if the cage sizes are unrealistic, won't this just push more people to go off license and why people start keeping off license why not go all the way and get us some nice exotics to complement the collection?

These will not be guidelines/minimums they will be enforceable sizes.Basically the powers that be could come and do an inspection of your collection and run a tape measure over your cages.If they come up short even by 1cm they can then issue a compliance notice to have it fixed or even issue a fine.Who knows they could even perhaps take your animals off you as well.

 

[Twin_Rivers]

From Draft Code of Practice
3.3. Snakes
The enclosure dimensions specified below refer to the base of the enclosure
measured externally and does not include additional surfaces within the enclosure
such as false floors.
3.3.1. Standards
3.3.1.1. The enclosure’s length or width must not be less than one quarter of the total
length of the largest occupant.

From what I have read of the Draft code the sizes seem very realistic to me, the size requirements for the standards and guidelines do not seem to be unachievable. A minimum standard is in my opinion not a bad idea and helpful to new keepers.
Just my opinion.
Hopefully the DECCW will give us a a comment on any updates of the code as they have with the draft.
If you are not happy with the code then I think that a email to the DECCW could help, if they get enough emails they have to listen.

 

[Ramsayi]

From Draft Code of Practice
3.3. Snakes
The enclosure dimensions specified below refer to the base of the enclosure
measured externally and does not include additional surfaces within the enclosure
such as false floors.
3.3.1. Standards
3.3.1.1. The enclosure’s length or width must not be less than one quarter of the total
length of the largest occupant.

From what I have read of the Draft code the sizes seem very realistic to me, the size requirements for the standards and guidelines do not seem to be unachievable. A minimum standard is in my opinion not a bad idea and helpful to new keepers.
Just my opinion.
Hopefully the DECCW will give us a a comment on any updates of the code as they have with the draft.
If you are not happy with the code then I think that a email to the DECCW could help, if they get enough emails they have to listen.

There have been that many drafts floating about it is impossible for those of us not "in the know" to know if 3.3 is the current draft.Perhaps a couple of people who were/are on the originally committee representing keepers could comment.I know they are looking at this thread as they have already posted here.