Rock Python

[waruikazi]

Lol Greg i thought they were only allowed to love animals? Like ostriches and goats and stuff :lol:

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Be mindful of the fact that animal rights groups enjoy the fight as much as reaching their objectives, they are worldwide in their influence & scope, and several of them have warchests in the millions of dollars. They are currently very active in trying to close down the reptile industry in the US, the NSW minimum stardards stuff has more than a whiff of this influence, which means they've tapped a nerve in government here, and may very well be residing within the department... As I said earlier, logic as we see it may not work with them, it never does with idealogical zealots.

Before any proposals are made to change the way we do things with and for fauna, we need to have reasonable answers to all the negatives which will be thrown at us. Only then will we have a fighting chance.

Slick, maybe she saw the picks of you & your gorgeous shorts...

J.

 

[Wild~Touch]

Hey Slick

I love ya too, coz your FOR THE ANIMALS

Cheers
Sandee

 

[Elapidae1]

There is something that crossed my mind; this thread spins around the Oenpelli python and even there we can't decide (we don't know) if it's endangered or not. My question is, how many other species of reptiles and which ones would we mark as suitable to take into captivity for conservation breeding? Surely, we wouldn't go by their conservations status, which in most cases is a joke, so what criteria would we use?

Michael

maybe in cases such as the Oenpelli python, rather than trying to agree on it's status, I think a points based method on deciding whether a species deserves further investigation would be more effective, act as if the conservation status didn't exist. As a group use a consistent method to identify what species deserves further attention and research, once you have identified a species, then work out a research and study plan. That way when it comes to lobbying, instead of standing in front of the powers that be and telling them that you think we need to study this, you can present them with the criteria you have used to reach that decision.that criteria could be constructed around the Oenpelli python to kick start it, hopefully there would be success and then when government agencies are presented with a new species using the same criteria it would be hard for them to argue against it.

Steve

 

[Waterrat]

Good point Steve, the research side of it is going to be very involving and complicated. Finding a suitable researcher attached to a reputable institution, research funding, ethics committee approval, the list goes on - will involve very lengthy process. Rick Shine had several students working in NT over the years, they would know the ropes.

Michael


PS. something from Sydney: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...ackyard-to-city-outksirts-20100712-107yy.html

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Good point Steve, the research side of it is going to be very involving and complicated. Finding a suitable researcher attached to a reputable institution, research funding, ethics committee approval, the list goes on - will involve very lengthy process. Rick Shine had several students working in NT over the years, they would know the ropes.

Michael


PS. something from Sydney: Blue-tongue lizards banished from backyard to city outksirts

I think this approach would end up being totally unworkable - cumbersome, time consuming and very costly. I doubt you would get an objective assessment at any but the final, feet on the ground, research stage.

What needs to be done, more than anything, is to change the collective bureaucratic view that Australian fauna in captivity, or becoming commodified, is something to be regarded as horrific.

It doesn't matter if an animal is threatened, endangered or common. Being threatened is a further justification for establishing a captive breeding group, and simply adds urgency to the case. If not endangered, but still desirable, then there is no point in preventing a species coming into captivity. We've spoken mostly of iconic species here, but I know enthusiasts who love even Leristas, so there should be something for everyone.

Changing bureaucratic thinking is absolutely the most important aim here - we are doing things with reptiles now that wouldn't have been thought possible 20 years ago (not all good, I agree), the culture moves ahead at a great rate, but the bureucracies are mired in thinking that's more appropriate to 50 years ago.

Can I ask if any of the major participants in this debate have any notional objection to collecting a species simply because it is desired in captivity?

Jamie

 

[waruikazi]

I have a problem with the way some desired species may be brought into the pet trade. At a stretch i think you could call it sour grapes. I don't like the idea that a few people may make hundreds of thousands of dollars to line their own pockets out of these animals.

The money, i think, should be reinvested into community development projects (where the original animals were collected from indigenous land) or conservation efforts. But no i don't have a problem with any animal used sustainably for any humane purpose.

 

[DanN]

Hi Jaime/Greg,

I suggest you get in touch with Prof. Mike Archer. I would presume you know about his work and desire to see native species as pets? The conservation benefits are no secret. I think Mike's project is call FATE and is aimed at doing exactly what you propose. In his case, however, he applies it to mammals - specifically Quolls.

Google him for contact details.

Dan

 

[Waterrat]

I don't the same problem that Gordo has, I don't care who makes what or how much through their captive breeding efforts. It would be different if hundreds and thousands of dollars were made from wild caught animals.
My problem is, IF reptiles are going to be sources from the wild, they, nor their progeny should be hybridised, morphed or genetically manipulated in any way. Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose to what is happening right now (and on a big scale) but this new project should be about keeping pure locality lines. ... not an easy strategy to map out.

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi Dan

Mike and I talk often. We appeared together on the ABC's Background Briefing show called the Native Pet debate a couple of months ago. You can hear the podcast or read the transcript here - Background Briefing - 11 April 2010 - The great native pet debate

Cheers

Slick

 

[cement]

Can I ask if any of the major participants in this debate have any notional objection to collecting a species simply because it is desired in captivity?

I don't consider myself a major participant but consider this....... If the sales of these animals is recorded, as it should be with these "special" species then firstly the people who put time and effort into the project should at least be re-imbursed. This financial management should have guidelines to follow and be TRANSPARENT, upon receiving re-imbursement there can be a cut off point where after on costs are continually provided for, anything left over goes into a coffer for more research etc.

 

[Slickturtle]

I think you mean they should NOT be ....

I am with you Waterrat. The key thing is that species are "preserved" without cruelty. I share your view about hybridising but at the same time I don't think that this will be a big problem so long as (as you say) this activity is kept at arms length from the conservation motivation.

I am waiting to see a VaranusXElapid cross - now that would be something!!

Cheers

Slick

Slick.

I don't the same problem that Gordo has, I don't care who makes what or how much through their captive breeding efforts. It would be different if hundreds and thousands of dollars were made from wild caught animals.
My problem is, IF reptiles are going to be sources from the wild, they, nor their progeny should be hybridised, morphed or genetically manipulated in any way. Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose to what is happening right now (and on a big scale) but this new project should be about keeping pure locality lines. ... not an easy strategy to map out.

 

[Slickturtle]

Sounds OK to me. I would like to keep some of those WA Simoselaps!

Can I ask if any of the major participants in this debate have any notional objection to collecting a species simply because it is desired in captivity?

I don't consider myself a major participant but consider this....... If the sales of these animals is recorded, as it should be with these "special" species then firstly the people who put time and effort into the project should at least be re-imbursed. This financial management should have guidelines to follow and be TRANSPARENT, upon receiving re-imbursement there can be a cut off point where after on costs are continually provided for, anything left over goes into a coffer for more research etc.

 

[Slickturtle]

Food for the feeders

Here is a question for all of you.

I have been troubled by this : -

If you are keeping small reptiles which mainly eat other reptiles or frogs (Burtons legless lizards for instance) how do you get food for them without being accused of animal libbers of killing lots of native reptiles to feed a few?
In other words, is there a way that you could keep these kind of things without having to sacrifice other native animals to feed them?

Over to you.

Slick

 

[Elapidae1]

Slick
Such specific feeders in my opinion will never be kept widely enough for this to be a concern, there are a few I believe that will eventually take pinky's etc but the difficulty in getting them feeding will be to great for any real interest in keeping them outside science and conservation groups etc. I believe some states allow the taking of certain small species for food.
I photographed my first S bertholdi and S semifascialatus about a month ago absolutely incredible animals I to would like to keep them.

Back on subject. I disagree somewhat on animals being collected for the pet trade. Say for instance in trying to gain permission to take and establish the Oenpelli, as soon as bureaucrats catch the slightest hint of people profiting of these animals they will use it as an excuse not to grant the permission necessary. Its possible you will get resistance from people within herpetology circles as well. I know there is some in WA that are very unhappy about RSP's being taken as they believe it was purely for pet trade purposes. I personally don't have an opinion on this, but suggest as soon as the money comes into it people will jump up and down even more, and claim that conservation is not the true motivation behind bringing this species into captivity.

Steve

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I need to point out that for most of the species here discussed, the 'pet trade' is WAY down the line, it doesn't feature on my radar at all when species such as Oenpelli Pythions are concerned. As with the RSP, many obligations would have to be fulfilled before such a species became available to the 'trade.' I have a strong link with the RSP story and WA, and most of the disquiet coming from that side of the country is sour grapes - JW has done something absolutely unique in the history of herpetoculture in this country. Any complaints should be directed to DEC in WA, who have a totally unreasonable restriction on the import of that WA species, and have stubbornly refused to consider that it makes a perfectly reasonable addition to the species allowed list. The costs involved in collecting them, and the work that went into breeding them means that there is not much profit from the enterprise at the end of the day.

The same goes for any hard to collect wild species, the costs involved in collecting, without any guarantee of success (this was certainly the case with the RSP) mean that 'profit' is a very subjective term. The big bucks are made by people who breed morphs such as albinos, which turn up free of charge in their incubators occasionally.

Collecting and breeding the Nawaran is very unlikely to make the breeder rich...

Jamie.

 

[Slickturtle]

Hi Steve

I understand where you are coming from re commercialisation. But the reality is that if that negative view persists them we might as well give up now and let numerous species slip into extinction without a fight. This is because it is essential for animal breeders to be able to sell their young in order to pay for the expenses of setting up a quality breeding facility. My own case is a good example. I breed Pig Nosed Turtles which were listed as Vulnerable at the time that I applied to get adult breeders. I built the facility myself but it still cost more than $12,000. If I had others build it the price would have been more like $30,000. Now, if I knew that I could not sell the babies I would not have done it. And niether will others. If you cannot sell young animals then breeding will not happen at the scale that is needed to maintain numbers out of the Endangered category.

The second part is that if you cannot sel your young animals what do you do with them. You are not allowed to release them into the wild. So this means that you would have to give them away. Does this make sense - I spend $12,000 to breed turtles and then give them away? I don't think so. In addition, if people don't pay a goodly amount of money for an animal they are less likely to care for it. On the other hand, if someone buys one of my tuurtles for $800 I am going to be reasonably assured that they are going to care for it well.

The cash flow in this scenario is the lubricant that allows the conservation wheels to turn. Without lubricant, the wheels will stop and there will be no conservation role for captive breeding.

Cheers

Slick


- A

Slick
Such specific feeders in my opinion will never be kept widely enough for this to be a concern, there are a few I believe that will eventually take pinky's etc but the difficulty in getting them feeding will be to great for any real interest in keeping them outside science and conservation groups etc. I believe some states allow the taking of certain small species for food.
I photographed my first S bertholdi and S semifascialatus about a month ago absolutely incredible animals I to would like to keep them.

Back on subject. I disagree somewhat on animals being collected for the pet trade. Say for instance in trying to gain permission to take and establish the Oenpelli, as soon as bureaucrats catch the slightest hint of people profiting of these animals they will use it as an excuse not to grant the permission necessary. Its possible you will get resistance from people within herpetology circles as well. I know there is some in WA that are very unhappy about RSP's being taken as they believe it was purely for pet trade purposes. I personally don't have an opinion on this, but suggest as soon as the money comes into it people will jump up and down even more, and claim that conservation is not the true motivation behind bringing this species into captivity.

Steve

 

[shiregirl]

This is probably one of the best threads i have read on here since joining lol. I haven't been on for months thinking it would be the same old, same old, but quite refreshing to see a discussion such as this rather than name my snake threads. Good to see! May log back in more often

Ps: Maybe not after being traumatised by those short shorts pic! My eyes!!!

 

[Elapidae1]

Jamie and Slick, I totally agree with you guys and believe that people should be remunerated for their time, effort and money spent, in fact it is an essential ingredient to the success of such a plan. My post was aimed at giving a point of view from someone steadfastly opposed to Oenpelli pythons being placed in captivity.

Jamie, I agree it is mostly sour grapes and complaint should be directed at DEC. I intended no disrespect to those involved with the RSP's story, There is a great article in the latest Scales&Tails magazine that gives some insight in to the time and effort put into this species.

Slick, I have looked at the pics of your turtle farm they are incredible. Is it open to the public?

Steve

 

[waruikazi]

If you ask slick very nicely i'm sure he would be more than happy to give you a tour. I went over and had a look yesterday, took all my effort (and the fact i'm stone broke) to not come away with a little piggy lol. It is definately a first class setup and i could only dream of doing something similar.

I also went to Greg's talk last night. His idea is definatley one that is going to be gaining momentum in the short and long term and he definatley has a silver bullet argument for the all the anti people that he will come up against.

Jamie and Slick, I totally agree with you guys and believe that people should be remunerated for their time, effort and money spent, in fact it is an essential ingredient to the success of such a plan. My post was aimed at giving a point of view from someone steadfastly opposed to Oenpelli pythons being placed in captivity.

Jamie, I agree it is mostly sour grapes and complaint should be directed at DEC. I intended no disrespect to those involved with the RSP's story, There is a great article in the latest Scales&Tails magazine that gives some insight in to the time and effort put into this species.

Slick, I have looked at the pics of your turtle farm they are incredible. Is it open to the public?

Steve