R.I.P. Ivory

[Chris1]

Beautiful Dragons

heres a tonne of info on beardies,...and youre right, theres so much totally opposite info in the net its hard to know what to believe.

i stuffed up with my first 2, i fed them just like i was told to on a US forum, from 10 months old my girl was 655g at 47cms long, over 4 years i dieting i got her weight down to 460g she died a couple of months ago from renal failure, (fatty liver disease in common in fat reptiles which i didnt know while i was feeding the crap out of her, but i was told top reduce her weight slowly to prevent more damage)
she died 4.5 years after the damage was done and it was totally my fault. i knew she wouldnt live a full life, her sister was never as greedy (or maybe processed the food better, who knows) and was never fat and is still with me.

i still disagree that theyre not a cuddly pet tho, you get out what you put in personality wise,...thats the same with all animals, my lizards are way cuddlier than my dog was.

anyway, the list of possible illnesses might be of interest to you

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Jeannine, I can only agree with you about the conflicting info on the net, and it is a great concern to me, if I may say so on this site, that there are heaps of people on here who have zilch experience, but who freely offer dangerous advice.

To keep reptiles healthy and long-lived:
You MUST have a good understanding of the environment from which each species comes from, the seasonal changes the species experiences, and (I'm sure you understand this) that the needs of the reptile must override the needs of the keeper.

You MUST have a basic understanding of the physiology of the species you keep, so you know - when to feed or not to feed, management of temperatures through the various seasons, when to reduce handling or eliminate it altogether.

Armed with that info, you should have no trouble with a new reptile pet. I make no secret of the fact that I killed many reptiles in the early days because of ignorance and lack of knowledge, the difference between you & me now is that I can separate the good advice from the bad. Hopefully you will learn to do the same. I may have a bit of an ego, but I'm never going to be able to say I know it all - some things are still challenging for me even after 50-odd years of keeping. That's what keeps it interesting - the more we find out makes us realise how little we know.

A couple of fundamental errors:
Ivory was trying to brumate... at this time they should NOT be fed or disturbed in any way - your temps were probably OK for brumation, but not for digestion and assimilation of food. In captivity, brumation should be managed as an off-on-off thing, with perhaps a few days lowering temps into the cycle, then at the end (probably late August-September), a few days of warming until full activity is achieved. It means you may not see your beastie for 3-4 months, but that's just how it has to be.

If you want to keep the animal active through winter, maintain a full lighting and summer temperature regime, so that all the normal summer physiological parameters remain consistent. When you drop the temps, it induces major physiological and hormonal changes in the animal, with consequent effects on activity levels and feeding behaviours. There can't be an in-between, half on-half off position.

My suggestion to you would be to get a few good BOOKS, and read them again and again. People who go to the trouble of publishing in hard-copy usually know a bit of what they are talking about. Stick to the advice of one or two people who have experience, to do more than that will only confuse you. There is no 'one way' to keep reptiles healthy, some people's techniques are at odds with those of others. If you stick to one or the other, you will be fine, but if you try and combine the two (or more) you can end up in trouble. This is where the understanding you have of the basic needs of your reptiles is very important. The web - for a novice, forget it. There is as much crappy advice on the net as there is good advice, and unless you can filter the good from the bad, you'll come unstuck.

By the way, recognition of you & the difference with your neighbour doesn't constitute 'affection' for you, merely that contact with you is the lesser of two evils.

Jamie.

 

[PhilK]

reptiles like human babies don't come with a manual that says 'this product might develop the following, blah blah blah, and newbies like me can research as much as we can and ask questions BUT how am i suppose to know about mouth rot? unless i encounter it and by then its probably too late

Joking, right? All baby books DO have lists of illnesses your baby can get.. same as almost all material on keeping animals has lists of certain diseases, and mouth rot is really quite common.

Regardless, the mouth rot isn't the issue.. even if you knew about it it still would have happened as it stemmed from your suboptimal temperatures and constantly harassing your beardie while brumating.. These things ARE easy to research.

Live and learn.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Joking, right? All baby books DO have lists of illnesses your baby can get.. same as almost all material on keeping animals has lists of certain diseases, and mouth rot is really quite common.

Regardless, the mouth rot isn't the issue.. even if you knew about it it still would have happened as it stemmed from your suboptimal temperatures and constantly harassing your beardie while brumating.. These things ARE easy to research.

Live and learn.

There is a big body of published work, by reputable keepers from all over the world, on the management of Bearded Dragons in captivity. Any one of these would have helped you avoid the death of Ivory. Your funadamental mistake has been relying on the net for advice - if you're a novice looking for (good) advice, steer clear of the internet.

PhilK is correct - mouth rot wasn't the issue, the bleeding from the mouth would have signified major internal damage from the disrupted digestion processes.

Jamie

 

[redbellybite]

The 'pink fluffy bunny posts' meaning is, that people like yourself( ladyJ) have simply posted an 'emotional post 'without giving constructive advice on how and why it died due to her error ..alot dont want to 'offend' in pointing the finger when its obvious, so place these 'bunny hugging' comments up ..and while I do agree it hurts to lose a pet and yes to a degree they have personalities that we can as the owner recognise, they still have their primal needs and arent often met due to people HUMANIZING them ...this is what I meant

Jamie on the other hand said what needed to be said and explained it in easy terms this was far more of a better post to read in Jannine's case then some of the other posts ...

 

[LadyJ]

The 'pink fluffy bunny posts' meaning is, that people like yourself( ladyJ) have simply posted an 'emotional post 'without giving constructive advice on how and why it died due to her error ..alot dont want to 'offend' in pointing the finger when its obvious, so place these 'bunny hugging' comments up ..and while I do agree it hurts to lose a pet and yes to a degree they have personalities that we can as the owner recognise, they still have their primal needs and arent often met due to people HUMANIZING them ...this is what I meant

Jamie on the other hand said what needed to be said and explained it in easy terms this was far more of a better post to read in Jannine's case then some of the other posts ...

Well excuse me for being polite, considerate and trying to offer support. I could tell her that her beardie had mouth-rot, she was a horrible owner, she pestered it to death, etc. etc.... but I DON'T know that. I don't know the person, I'm not qualified enough to put her down or tell her what's what, so I gave my condolences.

I guess you're a snake person... you know, without 'humanizing' my shingleback, Brissie, I can say with all the sureness I have that she actually sees a reason to seek my company - I don't know what it is, but she does. She glass-dances for hours until I open her enclosure door, then she walks onto my hand, and sits on me until she's asleep. She's not hungry, not thirsty, the temps are right, she's got no reason at all to come and sit on me (and when I place her away from me, walk up to me). Maybe there are things we don't know about reptiles and will never know... people scoffed at the thought of the earth being round, but there we have it.

 

[PhilK]

I generally totally don't agree with the "herps love their owners" things. I'm a scientifically minded person and firmly believe that reptiles do NOT bond with their owners.. but when I was in Africa I saw a bloke put his boa in a pool. It swam across the pool towards a line of about 15 people.. when he walked around and stood at the end of the line it did a 90 degree turn to swim towards him and got out at his feet... very weird, and I can't explain it.

 

[LadyJ]

I generally totally don't agree with the "herps love their owners" things. I'm a scientifically minded person and firmly believe that reptiles do NOT bond with their owners.. but when I was in Africa I saw a bloke put his boa in a pool. It swam across the pool towards a line of about 15 people.. when he walked around and stood at the end of the line it did a 90 degree turn to swim towards him and got out at his feet... very weird, and I can't explain it.

Exactly what I mean... there are some things that can't be explained, who knows? But I agree with you on that.

 

[Jeannine]

like it or not i too believe given lots of interaction reptiles DO know who you are

the experience i had with ivory, me and the next door neighbor proved to me she 'knew' a stranger hence why she did a defensive display to the stranger that she had NEVER done to me or hubby

oh and for the record the advice i followed in regards to not letting her brumate and to keep her fed and hydrated ect come from members in THIS site

how are people like me suppose to know who to trust when you have several, even long term members giving different advice out and telling us 'so and so' is wrong and their advice is the only one to follow and putting each other down then we are left to sort it out ourselves, any wonder we get confused?

ty LadyJ

 

[xxMelissaxx]

how are people like me suppose to know who to trust when you have several, even long term members giving different advice out and telling us 'so and so' is wrong and their advice is the only one to follow and putting each other down then we are left to sort it out ourselves, any wonder we get confused?

ty LadyJ

You do not use a forum as your primary source of information. You can ask questions, and evaluate each different opinion that is given in response. You then use this information as a starting point in your research, and seek out credible texts etc. to confirm any information before putting it into practice.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

If you read my post (#42) Jeannine, I took the time & trouble to give you some very sound advice. It's up to you whether or not you follow it.

Nobody with BD credibility would have suggested to you to keep the animal fed & 'hydrated', in a sort of 'half brumation state'. That is likely to lead to death with any reptile. You have either taken the advice of a moron, or combined the 'best' of both worlds, with disastrous results. If you knew a bit about reptile physiology, this wouldn't have happened.

Central Bearded Dragons live in hot, dry places with very cold winters, especially nights. They are adapted to live in a harsh environment, where they may go for months without water at the hottest time of the year without any problems at all.

You pumped the animal with food and water when its metabolism was almost static (its behaviour should have told you that something had changed). The results were entirely predictable.

It has been said several times already in this thread - the internet is NOT a good source of information if you can't filter out the good stuff from the idiotic stuff. With all due respects to APS, there are some young players here who think they know it all, are free with advice, but have nothing but an info vacuum between their ears.

Jamie

 

[redbellybite]

A little while ago i went to feed and give her some water and found her dead

she had been sleeping but every few days i would get her out and give her some water via an eyedropper and a feed of either insects or vegies, she would eagerly take the water and food she was also opening her bowels every few days and only went 2 nights ago

the last few feeds i noticed some blood when she had eaten, so i had a look but only once could i see a little blood around the area of her 'gum' near her back teeth, nothing seemed to be worrying her though :?

earlier this morning i noticed her yawning so i decided to feed her when we came back from town with fresh crickets etc

i went to take her out a little while ago and her mouth was fused shut with dry blood and sand from the bottom of the tank, this i was cleaning up only to realise she was dead :cry:

i have done nothing wrong that i can work out, her enclosure's hot end varied between 28 to 32 (this depended on if the heater was on or not) but i did add a small 2 watt head pad under the sand where she loved to sleep, if i put her anywhere else in the tank she would move to the warm spot, this was only a tiny heat pad that let out a very small heat source?

over head she had a red light and a ceramic one, was putting her basking light back in tomorrow

what have i done wrong?

i am kicking myself in case i have caused her suffering

i am going to miss my little girl, she gave us so much love and affection, who says reptiles cant love

This in my view is a person asking ADVISE on what she may have done to end up with a dead reptile ....if she simply wanted to say my lizard died and left it at that ..then a simple yes RIP sorry for your loss post was adequate ...NOT in this case ,Jeannine layed her cards on the table and asked for opinions of what might have caused this ...to which she was given some great constructive advise by Jamie and a few others ...if you didnt know what caused it and couldnt offer advise that would help her out ..then maybe you and alot of others that do this ,should do a chitchat thread to say your sorry and RIPs ...not in a thread that was asking for advise ...I am not a heartless 'snake person' ...I do like lizards and all reptiles .

 

[Chris1]

im still convinced it was blood poisoning from the cut in the mouth
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...help-dieing-beardie-130393/page/6#post1650847
read the end of this link and it might convince you too,...

the link to the beautiful dragons site i posted earlier suggests Jeannine didnt kill her dragon by offering food during brumation, and if it was still passing BM's the food was obviously not just rotting in its tummy.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I don't think Jeannine said there was a cut in the mouth. She said there was free blood in the mouth, which certainly is no indication of a cut in the mouth. The blood could have come from anywhere in the digestive tract, especially as she said she saw it 'yawning' at some stage earlier. It may well have ruptured something by trying to regurgitate unwanted food. Unwanted food and water, when the animal is in shutdown mode, can cause all sorts of organic disruption to liver, kidneys etc...

im still convinced it was blood poisoning from the cut in the mouth. Offering food/water during brumation CAN be fatally disruptive to a reptile, whether you want to believe it or not.

Jamie

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/...help-dieing-beardie-130393/page/6#post1650847
read the end of this link and it might convince you too,...

the link to the beautiful dragons site i posted earlier suggests Jeannine didnt kill her dragon by offering food during brumation, and if it was still passing BM's the food was obviously not just rotting in its tummy.

 

[LadyJ]

This in my view is a person asking ADVISE on what she may have done to end up with a dead reptile ....if she simply wanted to say my lizard died and left it at that ..then a simple yes RIP sorry for your loss post was adequate ...NOT in this case ,Jeannine layed her cards on the table and asked for opinions of what might have caused this ...to which she was given some great constructive advise by Jamie and a few others ...if you didnt know what caused it and couldnt offer advise that would help her out ..then maybe you and alot of others that do this ,should do a chitchat thread to say your sorry and RIPs ...not in a thread that was asking for advise ...I am not a heartless 'snake person' ...I do like lizards and all reptiles .

If it were in Herp Help I wouldn't have interfered with my 'mindless drabble'. Again, "sorry" to anyone I've offended through actually giving a damn.

She could have asked for no condolences and merely a thread asking for help - but that was not what was stated.

 

[Chris1]

ahh, well i read that as blood coming from the gums and assumed it was a cut then,....in which case septicemea would make sense. but if i misread that, then perhaps not.

either way i highly doubt a dragon that was bleeding internally would eat regardless of what was offered,..

one thing i am sure we can agree on is that at teh first sight of blood the dragon should have gone to the vet.

the brumation section of the beautiful dragons link i posted clearly states its ok to offer food and water during brumation tho, and the people from that site are totally dedicated to their beardies and theres no way they would distribute info that was detrimental to their health in any way shape or form.

 

[morgs202]

i still disagree that theyre not a cuddly pet tho, you get out what you put in personality wise,...thats the same with all animals, my lizards are way cuddlier than my dog was.

Gotta agree with you on that one Chris. Jeanine, so sorry for your loss

 

[Kristy_07]

Jamie, you make a lot of really good points - points that are vital to owning reptiles as pets. I agree with you on just about everything. That said, a bit of sensitivity would have gone a long way in your post to making Jeanine WANT to do some research and better her husbandry practices, rather than feeling guilty about anything she may have done wrong. You stated that you lost animals when you were new to it all - surely you remember the feeling of knowing it was your fault? A bit of softness for someone who has just lost a pet, at the same time as constructive advice, couldn't hurt, could it?

Jeanine, here's a good thread from LadyJ from a few weeks ago. Sorry for your loss. Despite the way in which it was delivered, Jamie has offered you some really sound advice. I would be taking it on board, doing a bit more research, deciding on a plan of action, asking an experienced herp or vet's opinion, and getting yourself a new beardie. It won't replace Ivory, but it will help ease the pain. Good luck.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/animals-5363/coping-pet-loss-141324/

 

[Jeannine]

i have read everything everyone has written

maybe i did the wrong thing offering her food and water but SHE would open her mouth wide and eat the food hungarily, im sure if she wasnt hungry she would just have refused her food

was a little blood in her mouth a few times upon feeding which i had first assumed MAY have come from a cut/scratch from her food

i didnt FILL her mouth with water but drop little droplets at the front of her mouth which she would lick eagerly

thank you chris i have that link up and will read it from page one

LadyJ thank you, please i didnt want anyone insulting anyone else, some thing inside the box and others think outside, while i really do appreciate all the advise i also really appreciate the compassion of some of the members

knowing 'i' did something wrong that caused my girl to suffer and die is my pain and cross to bear and believe me nothing anyone has said can beat me up anymore then i have already done to myself

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I take your comments on board Kristy, and I guess some of the irritation I showed was due to the mindless and inane 'sorry for your loss, it wasn't your fault' responses which followed her post. I have also been dealing for decades with people who treat reptiles as 'normal' pets, often with fatal results. Chris1, for example, continues to promote the myth that feeding during brumation is fine... this is a dangerous practice for any reptile keeper to undertake, especially if the animal is subjected to less than optimal temperatures during that period.

I freely admit that mistakes I've made have cost the lives of my charges in years gone by, but ever since I was 5 years old (in 1953) I have lived and breathed reptiles, there was no internet, the books we had came from England (grass snakes and slow-worms!), so we learned by trial and error. These days, if you undertake to manage the life of a creature such as a reptile, the amount of information that is available to the aspiring keeper is astronomical, there really are no excuses for not understanding just what reptiles are, and what they need for long and healthy lives.

It is enormously frustrating for me when new keepers want to put their reptile into the same category as cats & dogs - cuddly pets with parallel needs. Sure, Bearded Dragons are remarkably tolerant of human contact, but anthropomorphising the relationship (she loved her family...) removes all natural dignity from the animal, and to me, indicates more neediness in the keeper than the reptile. Perhaps mine was a blunt observation, but I was drowned out by well-meaning people who offered no practical assistance regarding the cause of the animal's death.

I wish Jeannine no ill will, and I'm not unsympathetic about the loss, but I much prefer to be honest about the way I feel when circumstances arise like this. A certain amount of dispassionate advice might be rough to accept initially, but hopefully, in the longer term (time heals everything eventually), she may take another look at reptile keeping, from a different perspective, with modified expectations, and with a better outcome for the reptile/s in her care.

Jamie