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Waterrat

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Many GTP keepers, including Greg Maxwell say the greens do just fine in standard enclosures. i.e. wider than taller. True, they do just fine. My question is - is vertical space and vertical cage furnishings beneficial to them? Climbing up and down is a regular, sometimes daily activity pattern in GTP's life. They wouldn't climb if they didn't have to and they don't climb when not given the opportunity. These pictures speak words.

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Do you think the same applies to the other morelia species as well? Or GTPs specifically?
 
Well I dont have any GTPs but do have morelia I would think more vertical space would mean more climbing room witch would lead to a more healthier and happier python
 
Do you think the same applies to the other morelia species as well? Or GTPs specifically?
Kristy. l have both in vertical, they love it [its natural] and a pleasure to watch them....wouldn't have it any other way........solar 17 [Baden]
 
Do you think the same applies to the other morelia species as well? Or GTPs specifically?

Perhaps not so much, because unlike other morelia (except for RSPs), GTPs are predominantly arboreal in habit, equipped with a true prehensile tail.
 
Thanks, Baden (and Michael, of course). I'll be building my own enclosures when I get back, and always wonder why most people seem to go for a horizontal design. I think the answer is probably "space", but I think happier snakes are more important.

I'll prob get something made for the new burmese, so maybe a big square would be best..... hmmm....
 
I wonder how you could experiment with this with the other morelia species??? Same snake, in tall enclosure then long? But how do you judge how "happy" a snake is?

I'd love to do it... but can't right now, I don't think... :(
 
Kristy. l have both in vertical, they love it [its natural] and a pleasure to watch them....wouldn't have it any other way........solar 17 [Baden]
I gotta agree as well, I much prefer a taller enclosure for GTP's and morelia and do as Baden does. They do use the the whole enclosure and I do agree pythrulz, this must be conducive to raising a healthy python...
 
I wonder how you could experiment with this with the other morelia species??? Same snake, in tall enclosure then long? But how do you judge how "happy" a snake is?(

Yes, we could get off the rails talking about "happiness" in snakes. I think once you KNOW your species, its behavioural patterns, you can judge if everything is OK (happiness???) or not. Each species (most anyway) have different activity pattern and it's important to recognise and distinguish that; sleep, rest after feed, looking for food, ambush hunting, basking, pre-slough behaviour and signs, inquisitive behaviour - all of that needs to be recognised and correctly interpreted. Then we can make some judgements about the snake's well being (= happiness?).
 
I gotta agree as well, I much prefer a taller enclosure for GTP's and morelia and do as Baden does. They do use the the whole enclosure and I do agree pythrulz, this must be conducive to raising a healthy python...

thats what I think..:) agreed baden and scott
 
Yes, we could get off the rails talking about "happiness" in snakes. I think once you KNOW your species, its behavioural patterns, you can judge if everything is OK (happiness???) or not. Each species (most anyway) have different activity pattern and it's important to recognise and distinguish that; sleep, rest after feed, looking for food, ambush hunting, basking, pre-slough behaviour and signs, inquisitive behaviour - all of that needs to be recognised and correctly interpreted. Then we can make some judgements about the snake's well being (= happiness?).
This bloke in the pic "lives" in the top of his 6'/180cm high enclosure, but goes down and up again after a fresh rat as if to get the meal into his stomach and stretch where as his lady-friend is 50% up at the top and 50% in a hide on the bottom of her enclosure......solar 17 [Baden]
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Wowza. I'd like to visit your house one day, Baden. Feel free to invite me for dinner sometime :D

I agree that, once having owned animals for a while, you get to tell whether they are "happy" or not, even if it's only from recognising certain behaviours or lack thereof.

Even with my new acquire.... a species I haven't owned before and is as placid as anything (meaning that biting and striking is not a behaviour indicator with her), I can tell so far that she's quite happy to get in the water and have a swim, and then a bit of a cruise and explore after - she's relaxed, inquisitive, "happy".... after about 30mins out though, she gets quiet, stops tongue flicking, sits very still, often hides her head under a coil, and her breathing isn't as even - ready to go back home.

They may sound like small indicators that would be easily confused, but I'm happy to trust Michael, Baden, etc. that if they say they feel their animals are "happier" in a vertical space with things to climb, you are probably on the money, because you know your animals.
 
i think happy = healthy and alert

without getting into a debate about where emotions are generated from in the brain and which brain bits snakes have compared to humans etc...i think given they cant 'tell' us a snake that is settled and thriving tells us everything

Elizabeth
 
Regardless of whether or not they prefer it I think that it gives them much needed exercise which is never a bad thing
 
On the other side of the coin guys, do you really think you're fooling your snakes into thinking they are 20 feet off the ground by giving them a 4 foot tall enclosure rather than a 2 foot tall enclosure? As long as they can perch (which seems to only be a necessity with Rough Scaled Pythons and Green Pythons and even that is arguable), is there any noticeable effects between horizontal enclosures compared to vertical enclosures? I have several species of Morelia here that are kept solely in tubs since they were hatchlings and are thriving - Scrubs, Diamonds, Murray Darlings, Carpets, Bredli etc. I've even maintained both Brown and Green Tree Snakes in the past without perches.

Cheers
 
Oh, Jonno, I will shoot you down in flames tomorrow. Read my posts above in the mean time, it's not about survival, it's about providing the best we can.
Too many glasses of red tonight - the duel is on tomorrow. LOL
Scrubs, Diamonds, Murray Darlings, Carpets, Bredli etc. are not arboreal species. Think it over.

cheers
Michael
 
Sorry Jonno but I disagree with you on every point in your post. The shape and size of an enclosure for arboreal snakes does make difference to their well being, it's noticeable and maybe even measurable. I could go on and on but ...... there are snake farmers and there are snake keepers, I have nothing against the former, just that I am not one of them.

Something more interesting: when the lights went out last night, the female went on an exploration tour of her new cage, cruising around all night. To my surprise, I found her this morning wrapped around those vertical roots again. Just hanging out. LOL

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In my extremely limited experience, I'd say it's down to the individual snake. 2 of my coastals very seldom touch ground and I have a few jungles that spend a lot of time on the ground but appear to "enjoy" a good climbing session. I personally always opt for additional height in enclosures where the occupant is even partially arboreal. It always gets used so does that count as "enjoyment"? I'd say so.
 
Something more interesting: when the lights went out last night, the female went on an exploration tour of her new cage, cruising around all night. To my surprise, I found her this morning wrapped around those vertical roots again. Just hanging out.

Michael, perhaps you're in a position to agree with me on this (or not), but I'm definitely starting to feel that perhaps snakes enjoy new experiences and doing things they've never done before, just for the hell of it, as much as mammals and humans do. It's probably not something that had really crossed my mind very much, especially seeing as housing reptiles in very simple (dare I say "bare") enclosure, with only a hide, water, and perhaps a perch, is both common and regarded as normal.

However, your stunning girl has shown that when given the chance to roam, explore, and physically utilise a stimulating environment, they will! And, back to our original point on snake "happiness" seem to enjoy it!

I have definitely noticed this week, my burmese, who was living in a bare, chicken wire cage, without even a hide or water, and being constantly poked and prodded by a baby monkey, has SEEMED to "enjoy" some new experiences this week - soaking her was my way of getting her hydrated again, but yesterday when I took her out, as soon as I opened the lid to the soaking container, she was in there of her own accord in a heart beat, drinking, doing laps, and blowing bubbles! I started another thread a few days ago about when I put her on my textured office chair material, she did circular laps around herself for quite some time checking out things around her, and all I could think to put it down to is that the chair possibly felt very different from the chicken wire, and she was just enjoying the feel of it (this is possibly a pretty far stretch I realise, but check out the vid in my other thread, and tell me that corn snake isn't just having a bit of fun!). She also thoroughly checked out the bristles on my hairbrush, and positively quivered when she slithered over the top of it!

I can't explain any of this behaviour, except that they would be experiences and textures that I would place money on her having never encountered before, and I believe she might just be enjoying the new stimulation that the environment is offering in comparison to before.

Back to your original thought, Michael. I agree with you - I think that our animals do just fine in environments that offer the bare minimum, and that if in those environments, they are sheltered, with access to food and water, and free from illness and stress, than they are probably "happy". But, given the opportunity to live a life with natural, reptile-orientated mental stimulation, like room to climb vertically, things to explore, the chance for a swim (if appropriate), then they seem to show through positive behaviours that they do enjoy it, and I would think that it's good for them :)
 
why not have both? i figured the higher and more depth given is better imo. waterat how'd you attach those vertical perches? liquid nails?
 
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