What is going on with prices?

[Teamsherman]

whats a good price for jungles these days???

Whatever you are happy to pay for them.

 

[stockhorse]

As far as prices.There is a fellow in my area selling jungle cross coastals for $1200 to unsuspecting newbs.Tells them not to let people know as they are rare and really worth more but he has more incubating so must move some on.
What are established breeders etc doing wrong if this rogue can do this?

 

[Laghairt]

Being honest? If someone is willing to part with that much money without knowing what they're paying for then they have more money than brains.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Stockhorse Quote
There is a fellow in my area selling jungle cross coastals for $1200 to unsuspecting newbs
End quote


Maybe this rogue is selling jungle x coastal RPM/jags

 

[Addam]

i study Economics at school, and i often use the current state of the herp market as an example,when we are discussing supply and demand side theories. Too many people have come into the breeding market, and now supply outweighs demand, hence why rat prices have gone up.... for an economics student and herp enthusiast its a very interesting time indeed

 

[stockhorse]

Jungle_Freak, a fair point,but having seen them they are very ordinary.I also agree more money than brains.I wonder where he gets his supply of buyers and how he gets them that the genuine guys with quality herps seem to be missing.

 

[Tikanderoga]

There is a fellow in my area selling jungle cross coastals for $1200 to unsuspecting newbs.

There are many factors in this:
1. unsuspecting newbs - they should do their research first and start with a beginner snake.
2. for $1200 - As jungle_freak said - they might be some special breed (jungle x coastal RPM/jags)
3. There is no point in starting off into a new hobby with no idea of what one gets at a high price (justified or not) when said person doesn't know if that's the right hobby.

It's like giving a beginner driver a massive car (say a hummer) to drive. He might be fine with it, but the chances that he'll crash it or doesn't know how to deal with it are quite high.

 

[beatlloydy]

As far as Herps go I am new to the game (only 1 year experience). I am willing to pay what the market dictates for a species I desire...if it is too expensive I wont pay for it and will either wait or not have that species.

I want to experience the pleasure and excitement of breeding but am willing to wait (I could have rushed out and bought a breeding pair). I know I am too late into the market of herps to make money out of it like I have heard some do...am I jealous?...not really...that is the way a lot of business' work out...the early bird gets the worm.

As a lot of people have alluded to..the market will probably correct itself and some stability may appear. However, I dont see anything wrong with, say if I breed standard stimsons or darwins in 1 to 2 years time and the market is having trouble selling them at $100 ...in me selling them for $50 or so. At least I get to experience the trials and tribulations of breeding and it is something me and my children can gain experience and enrichment from...it is not always about the money.

Contrary to a lot of peoples opinions...I never do anything for the money...its not that I am rich (far from it)...but I do things for the sake of what I like...i.e... I like to collect guitars and signed memorabillia related to music...it probably wont make me rich but I enjoy looking at it (and playing the various guitars albeit badly) and it is another interest/hobby of mine...I could have invested that money in stocks etc but all that gives me is a piece of paper which is quite boring to look at. As the good old Captain Goodvibes said "I may not know art...but I know what I like".

This analogy can even be applied to Herps. I choose the snakes I like based on availability and cost. I happen to like the Albino Darwins and blue phase GTP's...I just cant justify to either myself or my wife at this point in time the cost of them...I dont believe they are too expensive ..the current cost is what the market is and thats life.
Perhaps next year ...or the one after that.

What I dont like seeing is the constant upgrading by people....seeing reps as a commodity rather than a pet or an animal (I come from the old school regime where a pet is for life)...just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Waterrat]

Beatlloydy, you have put it very nicely, that's how things should be. I think some stability will appear as a result of the fact that many "breeders for money" will drop out of the game once their efforts become unprofitable. Your example of selling stimsons or darwins for $50.- (if that's all you get) is applicable in your situation or anyone's with a pair or two but there are many breeders working with large collections, producing or aiming to produce different morphs, at least that's the direction I see the hobby heading.

Let me give you an example (of course native GTPs); to select for a strong vertebral line, you can't just start with one or two juveniles, you need more than that if you want to see some pleasing results in your lifetime. They breed at 3.5 years and then you have to wait another year to see what the babies (yearlings by then) turn out like, select individuals with the best potential and wait another 4.5 years to assess the next generation. I am talking about project that will take a decade or more, while you're maintaining a fairly large collection of mainly juveniles which are pain in the ..... to feed plus the adults and yearlings. Your returns come from selling off the undesirable adults and yearlings that don't show any potential for improvement of that trait.
After you factor in your initial investments; the original snakes, enclosures and accessories, incubators, rearing tubs plus the ongoing costs such as electricity, food, vet bills and incidentals you will arrive at certain figure (whatever it may be). Call it hobby, love, passion, whatever, your time invested in this ongoing process is going to be substantial and after doing it for a number of years you may realise that your time is actually worth something (in terms of $$$) and you want to earn some rewards for that too.
Of course, you can just wrap it up at any stage and take up stamp collecting instead, but that's what separates the goats from the sheep.
That's how I see it.

 

[Waterrat]

Just would like to add, I don't understand the mentality of people saying that if you're making money from the hobby, it's no longer a hobby. Why not? I would have thought the opposite - it's an incentive. It may allow you to build that outdoor pit you always wanted, buy more animals, books or go the to next Herp symposium to learn more about you beloved animals and the hobby itself. Making money out your hobby is not evil. Perhaps I should define what I meant by "breeders for money" in the above post; they're those who sell snakes to buy drugs or spend the money on their hot rods...... they're the goats. :shock:

 

[syeph8]

Im getting your point even less now michael, so excuse my ignorance but i need some clarity on your oppinion of this issue. your above post seems to be saying to me that you spend your time and money trying to develop quality snakes, and you sell the "undesirable" ones (or the ones you dont want.. which is perfectly understandable). if you can make a profit from this then good on you. what you spend that profit on is your business and nobody elses. buy drugs, grog, hotrods, goats, or a pit. for this time you are spending on developing your "desireable snakes" (which you are not selling at this point) you believe that the customers recieving those undesirable snakes should pay? im not saying that a lot of hard work and forethought dont go into breeding (sometimes, depending on the breeder), im simply saying i would consider this hard work and forethought to be an enjoyable hobby, not a job (to clarify, i am not saying that if you make money out of a hobby its not longer a hobby, i am saying that most hobbies cost money and herping HAS been an exception for some where simply enjoying the hobby can lead to a small ammount of revenue.. this may change, it may not, im not going to predict the financial weather.) . i have seen some of the animals you have produced and all i have seen are teriffic, you have had a great stock to start your breeding with and for that i am envious. i am, however, a little dissapointed that someone who works with such beautiful examples of GTP's would not be more humbled and appreciative of his luck and simply enjoy his hobby.

 

[Waterrat]

OK, I try to explain myself better.
Lets say, I have a clutch of 20 juveniles. In order to select the ones with a potential to improve the trait I am working on, I have to keep the 20 snakes for 8 months to 1 year. I then select 2 or 3 pairs as future breeders and sell the rest. I used the term "undesirable" - that doesn't mean they are second class snakes, all it means that they're unsuitable for my breeding program but may be much appreciated by other keepers.
My involvement with GTPs is not my job, photography and publishing is (in the last few years). However, I don't see any reason why I couldn't make money from snakes, the money goes back to the hobby (not to drugs or grog) and I feel quite good about it. There is no rule that hobby should cost money, it often does but there are exceptions. Some people play stock market as a hobby, sometimes they have a windfall, sometimes they loose.
As to your last sentence; I enjoy working with my snakes immensely, I don't know how to convince you of this, I worked with reptiles all my life and all my life I had a steady job as well. Why should I be humble about what I am doing? Yes, I was lucky with my snakes but I also spent lifetime studying them, working in the Zoo industry and keeping private collection as well. Now I am doing my best to disseminate my knowledge and experience through my magazine articles, books, talks, etc.. To me, it's much, much more than just a keeping / breeding hobby.
I trust I clarified the points you raised.

 

[syeph8]

points clarified and understood, and i am not opposed to anyone charging whatever they want for anything they want to sell. if you arent willing to part with your animals for less than $20,000 thats your price and i wish you good luck selling them, same if you are happy to sell them for a dollar or even give them away for free (then id reccomend that you make sure the guy has an understanding and appreciation of the cost to keep the animal). i am not against people selling animals for as much as they want to in the slightest, merely against the people i always hear complaining about undercutting and how low the market is dipping etc etc etc because in the end of the day, complaining about it isnt going to change anything and there are always going to be people who just breed purely for the enjoyment of being part of the process but have no real interest in keeping the offspring for substantial periods of time (personally im a fan of pursuing interesting and desirable characteristics over as many generations as my lifespan will allow, but not everybody is me).

 

[dani_boy]

why r GTP's so much more expensive than other snakes?

 

[Waterrat]

Why is Ferrari more expensive than Holden? :shock:

 

[blakehose]

why r GTP's so much more expensive than other snakes?

That's a rhetorical question isn't it?

 

[kupper]

Michael I think you have summed up this price argument well in your last response .... End of the day those who want a good quality animal will pay for one.
There have been many closing statements on this thread I think the mods should consider closing it before it comes back around full circle again

 

[Nagraj]

What makes a GTP a Ferrari while other snakes are just Holdens?

 

[CodeRed]

What makes a GTP a Ferrari while other snakes are just Holdens?

they're not anymore. Jags are the new Ferraris of the reptile world

 

[Australis]

they're not anymore. Jags are the new Ferraris of the reptile world

Don't need any advanced/ higher license for them either.. interesting times ha.