the JAG/RPM morph neurological issues.

Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum

Help Support Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
LMAO its funny how not one, but a bunch of people jumped on my comment as though I am an experienced person that should know better.

My post was what I gathered from the comment regarding siblings. If that isnt the case, then I too dont understand why siblings will be a problem in other peoples hands... if siblings can never produce jag offspring. And some of you misunderstood what I was saying anyway (the comment of siblings never having neuro issues).

Its funny how a quest for information ends in bickering about who knows more. I've already said I know nothing about this morph.

Though... one of you said its a co-dom morph. Co-dominant implies two sets of genes required to show jag phenotype... in that case a sibling may have one but not both of the genes... therefore not displaying the jag phenotype... but therefore cleverly paired with the right sibling, can produce phenotypical jags :|
 
Giggle, your concerns are about new people to the hobby may not be aware of this condition. I thing jags are hardly snakes that would be acquired by inexperienced newbies. They're not the cheapest either.
Anyone wanting to get any new species should research thoroughly all there is to research before buying. Just my opinion.

I totally agree Micheal, & on to further issues Maybe Ausie breeders CAN produce better animals, & produce a line that have no neuro problems.
It is really short term at present, all I can say is wait another year or two & then judge.
 
Hopefully when threads such as these run their course people will be able to make an educated decision when choosing whether to keep Jags/RPMs. And then hopefully keepers will be able to display a pic of their animals without the thread being bombarded. Props to Barra for being honest and forthright with his answers and opinions.

As for the neuro issue at hand, I can and will only comment on what animals I've personally seen. All up that number is around a dozen juveniles and adults, including the female we have here. Obviously a small sample size, but all showed no signs of any issues. The clear fact is that yes, some may show signs in the future, and some offspring produced will be obviously affected worse than others. But in the grand scheme of things, if the extremely affected neuro affected Jags were as common as some would like to believe, there is no way Jags would be as popular in the States from a designer standpoint as they are today. If all Jags were, for lack of a better word, spinners, there wouldn't be 100 ads in the back of US mags with passionate keepers displaying and promoting their animals. The market demand would never have eventuated and they wouldn't be as big in the States as they are today..
 
Thats right Den.
If you stress out your albino darwin you will be faced with these same neuro problems.
Keepers should know better than to battle or put them over to many females or feed them to quick too much too name a few causes.
Its greed that brings it out and next thing you know the prices drop cause they need to make their money so rather than the obvious they sell these animals.
Lets face it humans have neuro problems too and they still breed.
 
Lets face it, everyone thinks that they are an expert.
Cheers.
 
Lets face it, everyone thinks that they are an expert.
Cheers.

In some cases, probably. But surely the majority of people who have had first hand experience with the animals in question have a more viable (or reliable) argument. Although it is a personal preference, opinion based topic. I think it's more so a fact of people trying to push their point forward, over and over again in some cases...
 
LMAO its funny how not one, but a bunch of people jumped on my comment as though I am an experienced person that should know better.

Its funny how a quest for information ends in bickering about who knows more. I've already said I know nothing about this morph.

Uh, I don't see that at all? You posted something that was incorrect. If you don't know the answer and then go on to give incorrect information, then for the benefit of not just the person asking the question, but for everyone reading the thread, someone will correct you.
 
Uh, I don't see that at all? You posted something that was incorrect. If you don't know the answer and then go on to give incorrect information, then for the benefit of not just the person asking the question, but for everyone reading the thread, someone will correct you.
indeed
 
No. You are welcome to your opinion.
If you have read any of my posts on other forum you will know exactly where i stand.
How would you know what I have in my collection?

Stop tap dancing and answer my question about watching an animal corkscrew, bend back over itself, fall off perches, miss its food and bang its head around its enclosure. Its ok, if your good with that and feel nothing, I'm just wondering seeing as you are so loving towards your snakes.


I couldn't agree more with this statement!

I find the whole morph/hybrid disturbing & the thought of purchasing an animal that later on after caring for raising etc will most likely end up neurologically deformed/retarded is horrible!

I honestly don't see the point in keeping & breeding a snake that is so weak genetically & in a way it's
kind of cruel to put any animal through that sort of life!

Eg; My dog recently was diagnosed with neurological issues & she gradually got worse & worse
to the point where she wasn't able to eat, drink or even do her business without falling over or hurting herself.
I eventually had to make the decission to have her put to sleep as her quality of life was in the end
non existent .
 
Though... one of you said its a co-dom morph. Co-dominant implies two sets of genes required to show jag phenotype... in that case a sibling may have one but not both of the genes... therefore not displaying the jag phenotype... but therefore cleverly paired with the right sibling, can produce phenotypical jags :|

Here's a basic run down on the way this co-dom gene works.
(If i am wrong here can someone explain it in other words and I will stand corrected)


A wild has 2 dominant genes, 2 of the wild type genes.
So when 2 wild types are bred together 100% of the offspring will get 2 dominant wild type genes.

A jag has 2 dominant genes, 1 jag gene and 1 wild type gene.
So when a jag is bred to a wild tpye, 50% of the offspring will have 1 jag gene and 1 wild tpye gene causing them to look like a jag. The other half will have 2 copies of the wild type gene making them look like the wild type.

When a jag is bred to a jag, the results are a such:
25% of the clutch will get 2 jag genes (causing the lecuistic babies which seems to be fatal to date)
50% of the clutch wil get 1 jag gene and 1 wild type gene (these are the jags)
25% of the clutch will get 2 wild type genes (these are the siblings)

So a sibling cannot produce any jags as it only has wild type genes.
Unless of course it is paired with a jag.
 
I couldn't agree more with this statement!

I find the whole morph/hybrid disturbing & the thought of purchasing an animal that later on after caring for raising etc will most likely end up neurologically deformed/retarded is horrible!

I honestly don't see the point in keeping & breeding a snake that is so weak genetically & in a way it's
kind of cruel to put any animal through that sort of life!

Eg; My dog recently was diagnosed with neurological issues & she gradually got worse & worse
to the point where she wasn't able to eat, drink or even do her business without falling over or hurting herself.
I eventually had to make the decission to have her put to sleep as her quality of life was in the end
non existent .

So Itbites your dog lived a good life untill it came down with severe neuro issues and then it was put down ?
Sounds like something that a responcible RPM/jag owner would do in the same situation and most jags never get to the stage where they cannot eat for themslves etc.Jags feed and reproduce with neuro issues ???
But why was your dog allowed a chance at life ? I mean it developed neuro issues ?
By your rationale all animals that could possibly develope neuro issues should be put down at birth or the parents not even bred together ?


Roger
 
Last edited:
i have read from a few people (both here an other places) that its fairly rare they have extreme neuro problems
that result in an animal doing freaky back bending and cork screwing, is this right? or is it wrong?
im new to all this and am reading a lot but the Actual numbers of severe issues is hazy and a lot
of it all seems to be opinions or based on facts from some guy told me or i heard,
so what would be a decent estimate of the % that do get real bad probs?
 
My point to the post Roger

Is that it was heartbreaking having to watch her go through all the symptoms & make that decission!
If that could be avoided by not breeding to begin with....My question is why do it?!

If I had known that later on down the track only mid way through her life that my girl would have
ended up with those sorts of problems & be put down at such a young age,
would I have gone ahead & gotten her? I don't think so!
 
Yes Itbites ,
We all love our pets,
Even a pretty carpet python that may develope neuro issues
but people can make a choice of which pets they choose.
Im sorry to hear about your dog
Dogs are special souls
I have owned many many pets of all types and its the most enjoyable part of my life being close to animals,
but animals can get sick and die and it herts us deeply when this happens .
But that should never stop you from getting another pet.
Pets are a joy to own and if some go threw medical condtions we just deal with it the best we can.
Chin up Itbites
cheers
Roger
 
Last edited:
But that just sounds straight up dominant, put like that. With homozygous animals being fatal... and heterozygous animals being jag phenotype.

Like in hairless dogs, homozygous animals are fatal.

Here's a basic run down on the way this co-dom gene works.
(If i am wrong here can someone explain it in other words and I will stand corrected)


A wild has 2 dominant genes, 2 of the wild type genes.
So when 2 wild types are bred together 100% of the offspring will get 2 dominant wild type genes.

A jag has 2 dominant genes, 1 jag gene and 1 wild type gene.
So when a jag is bred to a wild tpye, 50% of the offspring will have 1 jag gene and 1 wild tpye gene causing them to look like a jag. The other half will have 2 copies of the wild type gene making them look like the wild type.

When a jag is bred to a jag, the results are a such:
25% of the clutch will get 2 jag genes (causing the lecuistic babies which seems to be fatal to date)
50% of the clutch wil get 1 jag gene and 1 wild type gene (these are the jags)
25% of the clutch will get 2 wild type genes (these are the siblings)

So a sibling cannot produce any jags as it only has wild type genes.
Unless of course it is paired with a jag.
 
But that just sounds straight up dominant, put like that. With homozygous animals being fatal... and heterozygous animals being jag phenotype.

Like in hairless dogs, homozygous animals are fatal.

I dont work with genetics but that is my take on it.
Only reason I posted that was to correct your mis-information saying that the siblings could produce a jag if paired with the correct sibling.....(unless I interpreted your post incorrectly)
 
But that just sounds straight up dominant, put like that. With homozygous animals being fatal... and heterozygous animals being jag phenotype.

Like in hairless dogs, homozygous animals are fatal.

if it were dom there would be no such thing as jags, homozygous and heterozygous animals would both be leucistic. Dont think of it as the jag gene, think of it as the leucism gene. Homozygous for it and the animal will be leucistic, het for the gene and it will show reduced pattern (jags) and lacking the gene (homozygous for wild type) will show normal colors and patterns(jag sibs) of course the sibs will look different to a normal coastal or jungle as most have jungle and coastal genes mixed in plus their sibs (jags) have been bred for pattern and color so that will also show itself of the sibs. Get what i'm sayin? I know half the time its probably a little difficult to get what i'm saying, i tend to start rambling and lose people lol
 
Good point Hornet.

So in a way Jags are visable "hets" for leucism (so to speak)
 
I totally agree Micheal, & on to further issues Maybe Ausie breeders CAN produce better animals, & produce a line that have no neuro problems.
It is really short term at present, all I can say is wait another year or two & then judge.

There was early talk (marketing?) that the neuro problems would be beaten here in Australia..something to do with some kind of genetic diversity we have here (lol). You seem to have bought into it Mr Davo, what in your opinion would another year or two do to change the situation?

I mean, my own perspective is o/s this morph has been crossed to nearly every type of carpet python including specimens smuggled out of Australia (most obvious in Albinos o/s) as well as the legally imported carpets to the states from Oceania.
I'm not particularly good with genetics, but it seems dubious a plane trip to the southern hemisphere is going to fix a problem with this morph.. that has continually been out-crossed for what, going on a decade now?
 
Can you explain in further detail "guarantees" and to what limit that they apply.

Cheers.

Hey jungleman... this is a very good point :) But people coming into the hobby don't know about the issue in the first place to be able to ask about guarantees etc. Its hard to find a reputable breeder when you dont even know what issues in the snakes you need to be looking for or getting guarantees for. Information is good for everyone involved :)

Hey guys, sorry it's been a long day and have only just got on to find further comments on this neuro debate which in-turn has been a really good read so far...

What I meant The_S_Word and giggle was more along the lines that breeders such as myself and the ones mentioned along with CarpetPythons.com.au and Jungle Freak that have made some valid points in this thread, are placing guarantees on their animals that they have not showed any signs of neuro symptons from the time of birth to months later when the hatching has fully developed and fed on it's own for x amount of months before being offered for sale (for those mentioned above or earlier, please correct me if i'm wrong).

Now if we forget the Jag or RPM for just a moment and think of a normal python, for arguments sake a jungle python, the same above is offered as a guarantee from good breeders on the health of the Jungle hatchie before being sold, this also goes with every breed of python (jags excluded). Of course a reputable breeder is not going to hand over this little Jungle that has been showing some signs of illness in fear of losing his or her good name in this industry, but more importantly the health of the snake being compromised even further by handing over the animal to someone that maybe inexperienced in caring for it further should the problem get worse. The same is said for any jags or rpms that are sold, we are handing over the hatchie to you and guaranting it's health to be 100% at the point of sale. But just like the Jungle, who says that the jungle won't show some sort of illness 12 months, 3 years or even 10 years down the track? I'm sure a lot of breeders will agree that they have bought a perfectly good snake at some point in their years of being in the hobby from a reputable breeder and some years later, the snake has gotten sick for what ever reason. That is the risk you take with any animal you purchase, as heart drenching it is and it has happened to me before, I don't go running back years later to the breeder yelling 'REFUND'...

Other than this, I hope this thread keeps going and we can exchange some mature, constructive comments and ideas in helping this popular morph become even bigger, better and healthier in Australia for new and existing enthusiasts alike.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top