Stressing your reps - on purpose!?

[giggle]

That is quite debatable. You compare a lot of what you're saying to dogs, but I think you need to do some investigation into reptile cognition - this is evident in other posts of yours too.

Also, you're totally missing the point. These exercises are not to acclimatise the animals to predators/stress, it is a study on the behavioural changes in response to stressors, and in particular, those that can be viewed as somewhat beneficial. Perhaps actually reading these studies would help.



"Just trying to justify?" It is approved, planned research - not an excuse, and they are hardly needing to "justify" their actions on a television show.

Nicman72 - I'll have a search around for the articles if you're interested, but mammalian cognition is a very different ball game so don't think it will be applicable to our reptiles at all. I'll PM you a couple of things to have a read of..

What part exactly is debatable? You often quote an entire post and disagree, but you rarely actually specify what you disagree with or your own actual point of view or knowledge on the subject. Without actually sharing any information, or putting forward your point of view in relation to mine, or to anyone elses... your posts are rather pointless. I love actual discussion.

If you think I missed the point, then you clearly did not read my post properly

You may have seen this show Melissa... but I did not. Im not much of a television junky. So I could not possibly know or reference the show. If you did see it and can reference it and have more than the OP to go by, then good for you

 

[Tristan]

? I agree that it is a good thing to remove all 'man-made' stresses from our animals' lives, but what if they sort of 'need' a bit of natural stress now and then?

i see your point nicman and i agree it is an interesting notion re natural stress, i would suggest tho that perhaps a snake seeing a predator in the wild and hiding would induce said natural stress, but do you think its possible new/young snakes will also see local traffic out side of their enclosure as a potential predator same as in the wild and this would induce the same natural stress instinct/response as in the wild,

would this also still apply for say 5-6th generation captive bred snakes, sure all the instincts are in tact but what your referring to as natural stress would never have been known to them other than that induced by captivity.

 

[Darlyn]

I have seen a few vids of people putting their males together to
"combat". Do they do this for a pertinent reason? Is it done because
it's required in some way? Would it be considered unnecessary stress?

 

[giggle]

But are we able to compare these 'man-made' stresses (ie hands coming in and picking them up, which they eventually become accustomed to) with the life-and death situations they'd face in the wild?
I agree they're still getting stressed to various degrees in our captivity, but I don't think this is 'natural' stress... can you see the difference I'm trying to make? I agree that it is a good thing to remove all 'man-made' stresses from our animals' lives, but what if they sort of 'need' a bit of natural stress now and then?

Don't worry nicman... I at least understand what you are getting at. That is more or less enrichment Variations in activity, especially to allow animals that evolved in certain environments the chance to really experience their 'natural' circumstances. I certainly think it would have benefits. Many keepers will no doubt say "My reptiles have lived long happy lives eating, sleeping, reproducing in the same cage with the same everyday human caused stresses!" As though the mere fact it has survived with little consequence is enough to prove them correct I think with a lot of things, its up to the individual. It seems some keepers are instantly offended by the idea that their current keeping standards differ from someone elses innovations.
I certainly believe in environmental and behavioural enrichment... and you don't need to be experienced with snakes to have an opinion on it... or to understand its value.

 

[giggle]

I have seen a few vids of people putting their males together to
"combat". Do they do this for a pertinent reason? Is it done because
it's required in some way? Would it be considered unnecessary stress?

From my research it seems a number of people put males together for combat to get them in a breeding state of mind. Some people have found it to peak a males interest in mating where before he may have been less interested. Thats as much as I could comment on that, I've never bred a snake in my life lol and wouldn't know the effects of that combat. I only know why they do it from doing a lot of reading

 

[-Peter]

Peter, "home range" and "territory" are two very different things that are not to be confused. Snakes are not territorial.

Semantics. The research show the snakes stressed when removed from their "home range".

 

[stockhorse]

It must be remembered that there is a vast difference between "stress" and 'distress". Stress is proven to be stimulating for all types of creatures and necessary to help maintain peak health and well being.Distress (for a prolonged period) has proven to be detrimental

 

[xxMelissaxx]

What part exactly is debatable? Exactly what I quoted is debatable. Taking a snake out into an "open sunny yard," and stating there is "no doubt" that they would enjoy it? Ha. That clearly shows that you are making these statements with no idea as to what you're actually talking about. You often quote an entire post and disagree, but you rarely actually specify what you disagree with or your own actual point of view or knowledge on the subject. I'm not always in the mood to spoon-feed. Without actually sharing any information, or putting forward your point of view in relation to mine, or to anyone elses... your posts are rather pointless. ...perhaps, but I'd take that over long-winded and inaccurate anyday. I love actual discussion.

If you think I missed the point, then you clearly did not read my post properly No, you just missed the point.

You may have seen this show Melissa... but I did not. Im not much of a television junky. I didn't actually, I have read studies on the effects of stress on the behaviour of animals and that's what I was referring to. So I could not possibly know or reference the show. If you did see it and can reference it and have more than the OP to go by, then good for you

Just an example below of what I was talking about when I say you need to research the animals you're talking about a bit more, rather than just draw on your knowledge of dogs and apply it to everything - your advice on how to "tame" a snake:

You need to prove:

1. you are not going to harm him
2. that biting is not an effective form of defense against you
3. you are actually useful and your presence is beneficial

 

[xxMelissaxx]

i see your point nicman and i agree it is an interesting notion re natural stress, i would suggest tho that perhaps a snake seeing a predator in the wild and hiding would induce said natural stress, but do you think its possible new/young snakes will also see local traffic out side of their enclosure as a potential predator same as in the wild and this would induce the same natural stress instinct/response as in the wild,

+1

This is the sort of thing I was getting at in my post.

 

[ShnakeyGirl]

It was a Sumartian Tiger/s and Siamang Gibbons. The Siamang's were also going to be sharing their enclosure with Orangutans

 

[nicman72]

ShnakeyGirl
It was a Sumartian Tiger/s and Siamang Gibbons. The Siamang's were also going to be sharing their enclosure with Orangutans

Cheers for clearing that up shnakeygirl... I'm glad someone was paying attention! Are Gibbons on the menu for S.Tigers in the wild? Regardless, the point I remember the keeper making was that it introduced a certain level of 'natural' stress to the Gibbons' lives, which she described as a good thing. I'm wondering if this would be the case for reptiles too...

Tristan said :i would suggest tho that perhaps a snake seeing a predator in the wild and hiding would induce said natural stress, but do you think its possible new/young snakes will also see local traffic out side of their enclosure as a potential predator same as in the wild and this would induce the same natural stress instinct/response as in the wild,

would this also still apply for say 5-6th generation captive bred snakes, sure all the instincts are in tact but what your referring to as natural stress would never have been known to them other than that induced by captivity

You raise a very interesting point there Tristan... I wonder if it's actually possible to 'breed out' natural responses to natural stresses over enough generations, or if those responses are hard-wired into instinct/reflex.

stockhorse
It must be remembered that there is a vast difference between "stress" and 'distress". Stress is proven to be stimulating for all types of creatures and necessary to help maintain peak health and well being.Distress (for a prolonged period) has proven to be detrimental

Another angle I hadn't considered. And I'm assuming an animal can suffer long periods of 'distress' in the wild too, also with detrimental effects.

giggle said: That is more or less enrichment Variations in activity, especially to allow animals that evolved in certain environments the chance to really experience their 'natural' circumstances. I certainly think it would have benefits.

This is exactly the question I ask... could providing controlled doses of 'natural' stress be considered an enrichment to their lives?

Thanks for the responses guys! Would love to hear if anyone already offers any of their animals natural stress on purpose...

 

[Waterrat]

Our approach to keeping snakes is fundamentally flawed. Why captive snakes in ZOOs do well and live long lives?

1/ They are set up large landscaped enclosures and the interior is changed from time to time.
2/ The snakes are not handled unless absolutely necessary.
3/ The captives are under constant observation by qualified keepers and vets.

as opposed to (in the hobby):

1/ White melamine box, plastic tub, newspaper and plastic perch.
2/ Snakes are being handled because some of their owners think "they like to be handled" or even "they should be handled".
3/ When things go wrong, take advice from a 13 year-old expert on APS.

How can we even start assessing "stress" in such situation?

 

[Serpentess]

You may have seen this show Melissa... but I did not. Im not much of a television junky. So I could not possibly know or reference the show. If you did see it and can reference it and have more than the OP to go by, then good for you

Just to clear things up for you:
1. Melissa never mentioned that she watched the show.
2. Watching 1 television program does not mean you're a "tv junky".

 

[xxMelissaxx]

This is exactly the question I ask... could providing controlled doses of 'natural' stress be considered an enrichment to their lives?

Thanks for the responses guys! Would love to hear if anyone already offers any of their animals natural stress on purpose...

I can't imagine that inducing stress of any kind would be beneficial to reptiles. I haven't seen any findings that suggest anything to the contrary (not in reptiles anyway), but if anyone knows of some studies that indicate otherwise, I'd certainly be interested.

 

[-Peter]

It must be remembered that there is a vast difference between "stress" and 'distress". Stress is proven to be stimulating for all types of creatures and necessary to help maintain peak health and well being.Distress (for a prolonged period) has proven to be detrimental

Again semantics, things become stressed when place under distress, things become distressed when placed under stress.

 

[Waterrat]

Semantics. The research show the snakes stressed when removed from their "home range".

Please explain.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Again semantics, things become stressed when place under distress, things become distressed when placed under stress.

I see what stockhorse is getting at in relation to the different types of stress. Distress is one type of stress. There's a model that was published that divided stress into two categories: distress (negative) and eustress (positive). Distress is often prolonged and persistent, so I think that's what stockhorse is trying to outline by singling out distress.

However, the model would only loosely at best apply to animals..

 

[Chris1]

Watching 1 television program does not mean you're a "tv junky".

im a tv junky, i turn it on and pass out,..BORING!!

Dont know if this works on the 'stressing/enrichment' theory, but before i started putting my jungles in teh aviary they were pretty flighty when i'd take them out for feeding or to clean cages etc,..(they dont get handled other than that) and their first few times in the aviary they did alot of hiding,..

after a few times they started to enjoy the aviary, come out and cruise, lie on logs in the open sun etc,... ( i guess they worked out they were safe)
SInce then they have become much more relaxed overall, even when taking them out of their enclosures they no longer go into strike possy and sit comfortably in my hand instead of searching for the fleshy part which is more fun to bite,...

maybe it has something to do with having dealt with the stress of the aviary, maybe they would have calmed down all of a sudden anyway,..who knows,....

i used the jungles as an example since none of my other snakes or lizzies seem bothered by anything,...

 

[xxMelissaxx]

im a tv junky, i turn it on and pass out,..BORING!!

Dont know if this works on the 'stressing/enrichment' theory, but before i started putting my jungles in teh aviary they were pretty flighty when i'd take them out for feeding or to clean cages etc,..(they dont get handled other than that) and their first few times in the aviary they did alot of hiding,..

after a few times they started to enjoy the aviary, come out and cruise, lie on logs in the open sun etc,... ( i guess they worked out they were safe)
SInce then they have become much more relaxed overall, even when taking them out of their enclosures they no longer go into strike possy and sit comfortably in my hand instead of searching for the fleshy part which is more fun to bite,...

maybe it has something to do with having dealt with the stress of the aviary, maybe they would have calmed down all of a sudden anyway,..who knows,....

i used the jungles as an example since none of my other snakes or lizzies seem bothered by anything,...

Interesting.

Could be that, or it could also be the opposite - that they are less stressed in the aviary for whatever reason, and have calmed down as a result..

 

[Chris1]

the aviary isnt their permanent home, theyre out in nice weather, in their indoor cages on crappy days and digesting days,....but theyre are much calmer in their indoor cages too,...
the girl jungle used to hang onto her rat till i moved her chair to a dark corner with no movement near her, now she'll eat on the open balcony in broad daylight with people walking past, i can even help her out now when shes having trouble finding the head (as in move her head to the rats head) whereas before that would be the end of feeding, she would have dropped it so she could concentrate on being in defensive mode....

anyway, something has changed, for the better!