DECCW enclosure restrictions
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Camo
Very Well-Known Member
All these same rules have been brought into Pet Shops for a while now. Enclosure sizes for dogs, cats and birds etc etc have been put in place for a while.
Knowing the Pet Shop rules and regulations i think most reptile keepers will not be meeting criteria. I think the 4x2x2 enclosure's will not be seen fit by DECC.
Poor people that have spent thousands of dollars on racking systems.
Knowing the Pet Shop rules and regulations i think most reptile keepers will not be meeting criteria. I think the 4x2x2 enclosure's will not be seen fit by DECC.
Poor people that have spent thousands of dollars on racking systems.
Camo
Very Well-Known Member
I think you will find tubs will be a big no, no when the code is enforced.
You cant expect people to just get rid of all thier racking systems that they have spent thousands on. Just not going to happen.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
It's not only about enclosure sizes, and making them compulsory won't encourage people to change their ways. All any sort of compulsion will do is drive people underground. The problem with the Code as it stands is that it's really a Trojan Horse - there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. As I mentioned before, the process has been far from transparent, and the fact that DECCW will not, even now, allow the broad keeper community to see it is cause for concern. We were promised an inclusive process, but DECCW has been very selective about the advice they've taken, and basically ignored the advice of the most experienced herp keepers in NSW.
Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a single issue (enclosure sizes) concern, it is about DECCW arranging for themselves a whole new range of reasons to enter your homes and tell you what to do with your reptiles. It will catch only licensed keepers, who, by & large, are likely to comply with reasonable standards. It will not catch those who are not listed in the system, and who probably need the scrutiny.
Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a single issue (enclosure sizes) concern, it is about DECCW arranging for themselves a whole new range of reasons to enter your homes and tell you what to do with your reptiles. It will catch only licensed keepers, who, by & large, are likely to comply with reasonable standards. It will not catch those who are not listed in the system, and who probably need the scrutiny.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
The reptile keeping community has grown so fast that many keepers think the breeding and keeping successes we are experiencing now have been that way forever. The fact is that our reptiles have never lived longer or healthier lives in captivity than they do now - and the husbandry practices we now take for granted are the sole reason for this.
Using Olive Pythons and Scrub Pythons as examples is not helpful - they are extreme animals and most keepers who have them will take care of their needs accordingly. In any event, pythons are lazy animals with very meagre requirements - in the wild they don't do much more than wait in ambush for a feed and then go away and digest when they are successful. That's not say that you keep them in a shoebox, but even though more room is probably a good thing from the keeper's sentimental point of view, the python may not benefit from it in any significant way.
Lizards are a different matter - active species with large territories, such as monitors and larger dragons, do need special consideration.
Using Olive Pythons and Scrub Pythons as examples is not helpful - they are extreme animals and most keepers who have them will take care of their needs accordingly. In any event, pythons are lazy animals with very meagre requirements - in the wild they don't do much more than wait in ambush for a feed and then go away and digest when they are successful. That's not say that you keep them in a shoebox, but even though more room is probably a good thing from the keeper's sentimental point of view, the python may not benefit from it in any significant way.
Lizards are a different matter - active species with large territories, such as monitors and larger dragons, do need special consideration.
Snake_Whisperer
Very Well-Known Member
I've had a look at the code (I'm sure you will see it here soon), 4x2x2 cages are fine for anything but Olives and Scrubs (as far as pythons go anyway). A lot of the larger tubs are also still well within the requirements found within the COP. The requirement for your larger pythons other than the aforementioned is 0.625 m2.
That is the code as you read it now, if you read the bottom of the part 1 section you will see that enclosure sizes will be INCREASED over the next 5 years to fall into line with exhibitors enclosure standards (these have not been finalised). This is the concern, ask anyone who is liaising with DII from fauna parks on these. We don't have any idea what these will be, but i believe it is much larger.
The code as promised
Take note of the statement that says enclosure sizes will be increased to fall into line with the standards for exhibited animals within 5 years. Without knowing what these are this document leaves it open to raise them to whatever they want.
Anyone on the DII exhibitors consultative group know what their proposed standards are?
Gird
Take note of the statement that says enclosure sizes will be increased to fall into line with the standards for exhibited animals within 5 years. Without knowing what these are this document leaves it open to raise them to whatever they want.
Anyone on the DII exhibitors consultative group know what their proposed standards are?
Gird
So if eventually I'm going to put in the same basket as an exhibitor... Does this mean it'll be easier to get zoology license..lol! I'd really like some Tree Boas!
And I'm curious what the fines will be for not complying? A good win down the RSL on the pokies might cover these fines for the year!
And I'm curious what the fines will be for not complying? A good win down the RSL on the pokies might cover these fines for the year!
giggle
Well-Known Member
Is it just me or does it actually say the calculation formula proposed for the 5yr period underneath all the tables... 0.25 x (python length)2
It certainly does say that.
So for your average 6ft carpet the standard 4x2x2 enclosure just wont cut it anymore. You'll need to go to something like 4x3x2 or equivalent floor/back wall area. So is DECCW going to pay the $10k I need for new enclosures?
Camo
Very Well-Known Member
Yeah thats what i said. A standard 4x2x2 just wont cut it for most morelia. I think you will find a heap of people wont chnage due to the fact they have already spent a heap of money on enclosure's and because they will now be classed as an undersize enclosure you cant exactly sell them on to well.
Sock Puppet
Very Well-Known Member
Exactly, I reckon there'd be a few people out there thinking the same, especially with the larger animals, like the bigger morelia, olives, BHPs. The enclosures I've just had built were based on the draft code (same as current).
Are they going to base those new sizes on the average adult length for that species or the length of the animal residing within? Especially considering an "adult" snake is anything over 12 months old. My Bredl's are nearly 2yo & are far from adult size. Are they going to take the animal out, measure it, then measure the enclosure to ensure it complies? I think not.
Consider this, for my situation with Bredl's. Current code stipulates a min floor area of 0.625sqm (Category D python, Table A6, page 31). This is based on an average adult body length of 2-2.5m. The formula in Table 2 page 12 states 0.1x(2.5x2.5) = 0.625sqm. Now the expected sizes in 5 years are to be 0.25x(2.5x2.5) = 1.56sqm. That's more than double the current min floor area.
Even for something like a woma, a standard 4' box won't cut it in 5 year's time.
Cat C python, average adult length 1.5-2m. Expected min enclosure = .25 x (2x2) = 1sqm which is the equivalent of a 1200x835 enclosure.
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Sock Puppet
Very Well-Known Member
No mate, they'll be fine. A 3'x2' enclosure is 0.56sqm area.
The future draft has macs as a Cat A python, average total length 1m, so expected future enclosure will be 0.25x(1x1) = 0.25sqm, so your current enclosure complies. And also considering neither width nor length can be less than 20% of total length, you'll still be right.
They won't be basing sizes on individual animal sizes, it'll be on the average adult length for that species as outlined in the tables in the code. So unless DECCW/DII decide that macs are going to be longer on average in 5 years time, then you should be right with a 3'x2'x2'
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Ha... I hope that the licence comes complete with a calculator in years to come. It's probably time to begin communications with the incoming Minister - the current Shadow Minister for the Environment. The current Minister (Sartor) is going to pull the pin at the next state election, and we need to ensure that he doesn't just automatically sign off on everything on his desk to clean the slate before he leaves. There are so many unsettling and unsatisfactory aspects to the document itself, and the processes used in it's drafting. Despite numerous requests for further discussion with DECCW, they have refused to speak with us about the final Code, simply stating that our participation is no longer needed as they have all the information they need to complete the document.
On face value, anything that appears to promote 'welfare' is pretty easy to sell, but this document has much more than 'welfare' at its heart. It must be remembered that the genesis of the Code is actually DII, not DECCW.
J
On face value, anything that appears to promote 'welfare' is pretty easy to sell, but this document has much more than 'welfare' at its heart. It must be remembered that the genesis of the Code is actually DII, not DECCW.
J
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giggle
Well-Known Member
:| so... on the table it shows the result is m2... so if my diamond grows to 2m.... by that formula I will need a cage with a floor space of 1m x 1m.... is this correct??
Or seeing as most morelia are at least semi arboreal, do the cage dimensions get spread out across sides, so I can have a floor space of 1mx0.5m with a back wall space of 1mx0.5m or is this just my wishful thinking?
What would my diamond do with all that 1mx1m space? I don't know what she will be like as an adult... but currently she sits on her perch 95% of the time... if I were to make that enclosure a reasonable size to fit into a house, then it would be 2m long by 50cm deep... :|
Most people also take their animals out for exercise, will this be taken into consideration? Especially considering with most other species, including dogs, the legal area required for them may be significantly reduced if the animal is taken out for exercise... to suggest one could do that with a highly active animal such as a dog or a horse... but not with an animal that sits around doing nothing but curled up in a ball all day... well its ridiculous.
The top table seems fair and reasonable... the planned formula for 5 years looks ridiculous and unmanageable. They are effectively more than doubling the size requirements in a five year period.
Or seeing as most morelia are at least semi arboreal, do the cage dimensions get spread out across sides, so I can have a floor space of 1mx0.5m with a back wall space of 1mx0.5m or is this just my wishful thinking?
What would my diamond do with all that 1mx1m space? I don't know what she will be like as an adult... but currently she sits on her perch 95% of the time... if I were to make that enclosure a reasonable size to fit into a house, then it would be 2m long by 50cm deep... :|
Most people also take their animals out for exercise, will this be taken into consideration? Especially considering with most other species, including dogs, the legal area required for them may be significantly reduced if the animal is taken out for exercise... to suggest one could do that with a highly active animal such as a dog or a horse... but not with an animal that sits around doing nothing but curled up in a ball all day... well its ridiculous.
The top table seems fair and reasonable... the planned formula for 5 years looks ridiculous and unmanageable. They are effectively more than doubling the size requirements in a five year period.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
It won't be an issue for you if you stay in Qld giggle - this is a NSW only issue at the moment.
ShaunMorelia
Very Well-Known Member
I was just reminded of why alot of people keep pythons as pets...lack of room.
If these sizes to be complied with (the 5year ones) people living in small apartments might need to rent out another apartment just for their pets.
IMO the 0.25 for pythons is a step in the wrong direction for the python hobby as a whole.
If these sizes to be complied with (the 5year ones) people living in small apartments might need to rent out another apartment just for their pets.
IMO the 0.25 for pythons is a step in the wrong direction for the python hobby as a whole.
Red-Ink
Very Well-Known Member
Wrong direction for the python hobby, right decision for the state govt to make revenue as what's the bet that non-compliance will result in fines, after fines, after fines?
Have they said what they're going to do about non-compliance/infractions in keepers?
Monkey see, monkey do, specially if one monkey is making money and the other is not. So no doubt if this is successfully implemented and rakes in revenue it's going to spread nationwide.
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