DECCW enclosure restrictions

[Kurto]

It won't be an issue for you if you stay in Qld giggle - this is a NSW only issue at the moment.

just another reason to get out of the rat race..!

 

[ShaunMorelia]

Another thing I noticed as well, they classify an adult python being more than 12mths old.
We have a few 11mth old morelia pythons that would be barely push 2ft. But according to the proposed enclosure sizes I would have to house them in something waaayyyyy too large once they pass the 12mth age.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Another thing I noticed as well, they classify an adult python being more than 12mths old.
We have a few 11mth old morelia pythons that would be barely push 2ft. But according to the proposed enclosure sizes I would have to house them in something waaayyyyy too large once they pass the 12mth age.

The inconsistencies in the Code, such as this one, will make it unworkable for keepers, and one would wonder where the notion that a python is an adult in size at 12 months comes from. Rules such as this may well work AGAINST the welfare of many snakes, but once they are written into the law of the land, they MUST be enforced, and an inspector has no right to use his discretion - the law is the law. So if you don't keep your 12 month old youngster (adult in the Code) in an adult sized enclosure you will be in breach of the Code.

What will happen in practice is that, if they like you, you'll be able to get on with what you do best. If they don't, you'll be accountable for everything you do. That's the way it works everywhere else...

 

[buck]

It says that for lizards, if two are kept together the floor dimensions have to be 50% larger than the requirement. So for Ackies the min enclosure size is 0.98sqm, so for two would need to be 1.47sqm. My 6x2x2 fish tank that I used to house 3 adult Ackies very comfortably in would be seen as too small for a pair given the floor space is only 1.08sqm. In fact according to these requirements a 4x2x2 would be too small to house a single Ackie being only 0.74sqm.
Crazy!!!!!

It's funny how we have been having a lot of talk lately on the advancement of the hobby only to be reminded how far we have to go. DECC will put this holter any progress of the hobby with this kind of ill thought out, un educated regulation.

 

[Kurto]

wow 12months in an adult cage? Who writes this crap?

50/50 on wether or not the python refuses to eat hey!

 

[Kurto]

It says that for lizards, if two are kept together the floor dimensions have to be 50% larger than the requirement. So for Ackies the min enclosure size is 0.98sqm, so for two would need to be 1.47sqm. My 6x2x2 fish tank that I used to house 3 adult Ackies very comfortably in would be seen as too small for a pair given the floor space is only 1.08sqm. In fact according to these requirements a 4x2x2 would be too small to house a single Ackie being only 0.74sqm.
Crazy!!!!!

It's funny how we have been having a lot of talk lately on the advancement of the hobby only to be reminded how far we have to go. DECC will put this holter any progress of the hobby with this kind of ill thought out, un educated regulation.

Well funded.. un-educated regulation..

 

[Laghairt]

We need to do something about this before it becomes legislation, you'd think the DECCW would have better things to do than focus on this.

 

[chase77]

A question about dragons, when they talk about total body length, do they mean snout to vent, or do they include the tail?

Chase.

 

[cement]

Can someone please explain the problem here.

I understand the way they are dealing with this is unethical, but as far as enclosure sizes go i fail to see what everyone is getting upset about. I would welcome being corrected if I am wrong here but this is how I see it.

I will base all my calcs on a python of 2.5m long.

5.3.1.1 The enclosures shortest floor dimension must not be less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed.

Snake 2.5m - shortest dimension = 20% x 2.5= 500mm

5.3.1.4 Enclosures housing adult snakes must meet the minimum enclosure sizes shown in table 2 below.For terrestrial species the minimum enclosure size is the floor area. For species identified as requiring climbing space (see appendix A), the minimum size can be either the floor area or the back wall area.

From table 2- Category C- snake size of 2.0m-2.5m- minimum floor or back wall area = 0.625m sq

Now an enclosure 1200 (4ft) x 600 (2ft) x 600(2ft)
Floor area = 1.2x0.6= 0.72m sq

0.72m sq is bigger then the minimum size they want of 0.625.

I have had an argument with a good friend who has been breeding snakes longer then anyone I know, about my cage sizes. I keep some pythons that are around the 2.4-2.6 mark in 1200x600x600 cages and he reckons they won't comply. I reckon they do based on those figures above. But what I do agree with him on is that this size cage, though adequate short term, I feel (so does he) that they are too small. I am right now in the process of rebuilding newer much bigger enclosures for my large pythons wholly because I would prefer to see them in something bigger.

So what am I missing here?

Even Category E snakes- sized 3.0 - 3.5m = a minimum floor size of 1.225m sq is an enclosure with dimensions of only 2m x 0.65m

 

[CodeRed]

No one is really concerned about the proposed cage sizes as they stand. Its the reference on page 13 to the DII standard in 5 years time which more than doubles the minimum cage size requirements.

 

[Ramsayi]

Its a lot to do with why regulate the hobby at all.NPWS should be out looking after parks etc not interfering with private keepers.

cement...........Are you going to let some official from the DECC,who wouldn't know the bitey end of a snake from the crapping end, run a measuring tape over your animals then your enclosures just so they can check if you comply?

 

[Sock Puppet]

Hi Cement,

The main issue is written on page 13 where it refers to the sizes changing again in 5 years, the current sizes aren't the issue.

In 5 years, according to that note, the min floor area for a Cat D snake, average length 2.5m will be 0.25x(2.5x2.5)=1.56sqm
The current min size is only 0.1x(2.5x2.5)=0.625sqm, so the expected future requirements are more than double the current sizes.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Its a lot to do with why regulate the hobby at all.NPWS should be out looking after parks etc not interfering with private keepers.

cement...........Are you going to let some official from the DECC,who wouldn't know the bitey end of a snake from the crapping end, run a measuring tape over your animals then your enclosures just so they can check if you comply?

That's exactly right Rams, but the welfare slant is a good way of them moving away from the notion that keeping is a conservation issue (it is NOT)and validating their continued involvement with keepers. Even though there are other means of policing welfare, NPWS (actually DII) doesn't want to junk the infrastructure they have now, and what better way to expand their influence than move into a whole new arena, and one which adds another justification for their intrusions into your homes.

Cement - with all due respect, your post is a classic - look at the length of it, and the convolutions you have gone through to come to the conclusion that you have! I don't mean that in any disrespectful way.

I think keepers should insist that, apart from the keepers themselves, that ONLY qualified vets can handle their animals at any other time.

The sunset clause to come into effect 'within' 5 years is the real worry because it's a totally unknown quantity, although waht is known is that bureaucrats at DII are very much in favour of massive enclosure sizes. This is the work of zealots.

 

[cement]

Its a lot to do with why regulate the hobby at all.NPWS should be out looking after parks etc not interfering with private keepers.

cement...........Are you going to let some official from the DECC,who wouldn't know the bitey end of a snake from the crapping end, run a measuring tape over your animals then your enclosures just so they can check if you comply?

Hi Rams, no I would not. And I totally agree with you and everyone else that they are stepping over the line with their proposals.
I read between the lines and know exactly what government departments are capable of.

What I missed was the note on page 13 so thanks for pointing it out Code red and sock puppet

Cement - with all due respect, your post is a classic - look at the length of it, and the convolutions you have gone through to come to the conclusion that you have! I don't mean that in any disrespectful way.

So what do you mean PI? and what conclusion are you talking about? All I have done is worked out the current sizes they want, as i missed the point that people were biatching about re needing extra bedrooms etc, and given my opinion on what i am doing for my animals...

 

[PilbaraPythons]

excuse my ignorance people, but is there also caging size changes for birds ?. For example, can you still keep a Cocky in a standard bird small cage as sold in pet shops or is it only the reptile hobby about to have these caging restrictions ?

 

[Camo]

excuse my ignorance people, but is there also caging size changes for birds ?. For example, can you still keep a Cocky in a standard bird small cage as sold in pet shops or is it only the reptile hobby about to have these caging restrictions ?

There has been new sizes for most animals in Pet Shops as i said in a previous post. Regulation sizes for dogs, cats, birds etc. Pet Shops now need to comply with these regulations as they are getting spot checked by RSPCA and the like.

 

[Camo]

All this will do is drive more people to keep exotics. Therefor not needing a licence and not having your address on record for them to come check out your enclosure sizes.

 

[Laghairt]

Agreed Camo, it will certainly give people more of an incentive to go underground (as if that doesn't happen enough already). I know its off topic but did anyone notice that they shutdown the reptile section on Gumtree? This happened one day after a RTB and a breeding pair of Leopard Geckoes were advertised for sale in Sydney.

 

[Chris1]

im baffled that people think 4x3x2 is unreasonably large for a 6 foot python, personally im more than happy to comply with the new rules, if some cages are deemed to small then i'll join 2 together and buy bigger cages for the rest,...
i'd happily let someone come in and measure my snakes and cages providing theyre prepared to use my tape measure, clothes i provide, latex gloves i provide and any other things i expect them to do to keep diseases out of my home,....my only problem is the possible spread of diseases from this, not the interrference into my keeping.

i do understand people wiht expensive collections not wanting every tom dick and harry knowing where they live and what they have, but if theyre in the system, toms dicks and harrys already have access to that info.

and as far as people going underground, how would they sell their critters offspring, if people want to breed theyre still gonna have to be 'on the books'

 

[Red-Ink]

Man, if this thing goes through there's going to be a lot of adult specimens flooding the market due to "downsizing" because of forced "upsizing". Time to get the hell out of dodge and into mexico for most people I think.