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You cannot say that for sure. Nobody can say either way for sure. Do you agree on that?

it seems you lot can say for sure that your way of keeping is better for the animal. Honestly as long as the basic needs are met how can it be bad for the animal?
 
I don't understand the mentality of the people against racks...... my tub racks are bigger than most conventional melamine enclosures!

So what..... are you better for keeping your antaresia in a 2 foot enclosure? Or me keeping them in my 3 foot tub?!?!? Who's snakes are going to be happier? seriously.

Just because people keep animals in racks, does not mean they have to be cramped and unable to move....... just because people keep their animals in the more conventional melamine enclosure, does not mean they are more spacious than a tub!
 
it seems you lot can say for sure that your way of keeping is better for the animal. Honestly as long as the basic needs are met how can it be bad for the animal?

I have never said that? Don't read between the lines hornet. I expressed my opinion. I never declared fact. Also, I must reiterate as you seemed to have missed it. I didn't say it was bad for the animal. I said in my OPINION I THINK that it is BETTER to have a decked out, spacious enclosure. Not saying that tubs are bad, just that enclosures are better IMO.
 
This arguement is a common one amongst pet owners of all descriptions.
Beta (fighting fish) breeders have their fish Jared, every day hobyests give them a conventional tank. Dog and cat breeders use Aviaries etc.etc Its all part and parcel of the individual hobbys and those that breed Fish, Snakes or even Dogs and Cats have the right to house them as best they can to produce the numbers of animals demanded BY the Hobbyests. Without whom (The Breeders) we would have few if any animal related hobbys in this country. It seems in most animal related Hobbys it is the actions of the few that keep the hobby going.
In no way does owning alot of animals of the same species and housing them in acceptable areas, jars, containers or tanks deter from the health, hapiness and enjoyment of keeping and breeding the species in question.

My 2c...
 
Well... I don't think it was specifically any rack system... but more specifically the fact that some such as snakebytes have enormous snakes in enclosures... racking systems... where they can barely move. I mean that big one was jammed in there. Are you telling me that you all agree with that?

I may not be experienced, but I am certain the ability to exercise to at least some degree is one very important basic keeping essential. An animal that can do nothing more than recoil itself in a slightly different position is not going to have good muscle tone.
Certainly is the most basic of keeping requirements.

I have seen a lot of your racking and tub enclosures over my time here and although you all seem to be taking offense to the mention of 'racks' none of you fit into the category I think this thread was meant... that is those that put snakes in small containers. I haven't seen any of you with small tubs or racks. And I am certain you would all put your animals in appropriately sized tubs to fit them, so they can move and reposition comfortably. Even having the ability to climb in most cases.

The snakes shown on snakebytes did not even have the ability to lift their heads higher than their body.

While it may not be essential to their survival... and they can live long lives while feeding and breeding still... it seems like my snakes appreciate/enjoy/like the ability to move and to climb.

And a dog, a cat, a bird, a rat... a human... can be put in a tiny cage where they can do nothing but turn around for its entire life... and live a long time while still eating and continuing to breed.
Take from that what you will.

---------- Post added 14-Jan-11 at 10:44 PM ----------

This arguement is a common one amongst pet owners of all descriptions.
Beta (fighting fish) breeders have their fish Jared, every day hobyests give them a conventional tank. Dog and cat breeders use Aviaries etc.etc Its all part and parcel of the individual hobbys and those that breed Fish, Snakes or even Dogs and Cats have the right to house them as best they can to produce the numbers of animals demanded BY the Hobbyests. Without whom (The Breeders) we would have few if any animal related hobbys in this country. It seems in most animal related Hobbys it is the actions of the few that keep the hobby going.
In no way does owning alot of animals of the same species and housing them in acceptable areas, jars, containers or tanks deter from the health, hapiness and enjoyment of keeping and breeding the species in question.

My 2c...

MontePython... I've bred dogs for a long time. I have never housed dogs in aviaries :| And anyone that did would be looked down on very harshly by the entire hobby. Those are what we call puppy farmers... and they are a disgusting blight on the hobby. I knew someone that did... and she had all her animals confiscated by the RSPCA.
My dogs... and those of most I know... were kept inside my house. They had their own room. They had free roam of the yard. They were toilet trained and looked after as pets first. And being a hobby, it was not about making money.
Yet the most sophisticated of breeders do not need to produce large numbers, rather producing quality animals that command a higher price for what they represent.
Those that expand their numbers have kennels and once again... those with cramped or dirty conditions are looked down upon. A lot of the dog hobby is based around how well you keep your animals... in fact it is essential... as showing a dog is at least 60% presentation... and a dog with a dirty or damaged coat will be laughed out of the ring.
 
Maybe i should have worded that last sentance acceptably sized for the animal??

Im new here and have been watching this thread with interest. There is a thread like this on most animal forums i am on and it is always good to see the differing opinions from both sides, Hobbyests/Breeders/Collecters. I think the greatest information can be gained by looking at both sides and basically decide for ones self the methods of housing they prefer. Housing needs to be practical to the numbers of species and animals kept. With cleaning and maintenance time workable to peoples buisy lives.

I would hate to think the Bare tanks i use to raise fish fry were frowned apon by planted tank keepers because it wasnt natural enough...
 
Thank you for clearing that up.
The thread was originally started about some videos i seen on youtube of a particular breeder.
I dont know why some people that keep there snakes in racks got defensive.
This thread wasn't specifically any rack system but more specifically the racks
that snakebytes uses.
I am certain everyone on aps keeps their animals in appropriately sized tubs.
 
they should be kept in small enclosures when they are young yes. But i like to give proper room for all my reptiles. When i get my wheatbelt in a few weeks i will do the same. Get him big and strong whilst he is in a small click clack then move him onto a nice size appropriate wooden enclosure. :)
Reptiles deserve a good quality of life in my eyes
 
The thread was originally started about some videos i seen on youtube of a particular breeder.
I dont know why some people that keep there snakes in racks got defensive.
This thread wasn't specifically any rack system but more specifically the racks
that snakebytes uses.
I am certain everyone on aps keeps their animals in appropriately sized tubs.

Maybe you should have made this clear at the beginning of this thread? It seemed to me and everyone else you were blanketing all rack keepers the same.

I know there are certain people who have contributed to this thread that judge those for keeping in racks of any size.




---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 08:09 AM ----------

Get him big and strong whilst he is in a small click clack then move him onto a nice size appropriate wooden enclosure. :)
Reptiles deserve a good quality of life in my eyes

So what size ''appropriate wooden enclosure'' will you be housing your wheatbelt in as an adult? :rolleyes:
 
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This arguement is a common one amongst pet owners of all descriptions.
Beta (fighting fish) breeders have their fish Jared, every day hobyests give them a conventional tank.

i thought i would add this, Fighting fish breeders do not jar their fish, its the pet shops and wholesalers that jar the fish. Its only really acceptable for temporary accommodation. Fishing fish breeders house their fish in tanks with filtration like you would any other fish although the tank size is normally alot smaller because of the the conditions these fish have evolved to cope with. Most beta breeders actually use live plants with their breeders
 
So what size ''appropriate wooden enclosure'' will you be housing your wheatbelt in as an adult? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

3x1.5x1.5 no need to get smart mate. I just like to house my favourite reps in display enclosures. . I have racks also so don't get me wrong
 
Agreed. I use racking systems for a lot of my animals and I certainly don't feel as though I am "degrading" my animals in any way. They all have ample space, perches etc. All their needs are taken care of.

These posts without evidence are merely opinions - nothing more. Before having a dig at other keepers, please feel free to support those opinions of yours with evidence that an enclosure with a more "natural" appearance is beneficial to our animals and in what ways. If racking systems are so detrimental, please also provide evidence to support these claims.

An argument is an absolute waste of time if no one can support any of their claims.

Melissa, no one said that keeping reptiles in small plastic boxes is detrimental to them. It's a matter aesthetics and the keeper's reason for keeping reptiles in the first place. Imagine going to the zoo and seeing snakes on display on newspaper, etc.. I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 10:15 AM ----------

Somebody said the magic word - "stimulus". Undeniably, reptiles kept in large, landscapes enclosures (periodically changed) or outdoor pits are more active and that alone has to be good for them if nothing else.
 
i agree to a point with the OP....i dont mind when people use tubs...i am currently using 80 litre bells tubs for a pair of tanami woma pythns, a yearling BHP and a spotted python...all of the snakes have PLENTY of room to move around......but big snakes like burms and retics i think need to be in appropriate sized enclosures.....

i am however starting to get a bit bored with using the tubs......i mean dont get me wrong...they are cheaper to run with housing 4 snakes and only using 80 watts of power....but you dont get to see the snake unless you open the tub up.....i might end up making some enclosures for them in the future and use the tubs for quarantining purposes instead...
 
I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.

Very Well said :p
 
i thought i would add this, Fighting fish breeders do not jar their fish, its the pet shops and wholesalers that jar the fish. Its only really acceptable for temporary accommodation. Fishing fish breeders house their fish in tanks with filtration like you would any other fish although the tank size is normally alot smaller because of the the conditions these fish have evolved to cope with. Most beta breeders actually use live plants with their breeders

Dont know how many Beta breeders you know but i (when i bred them several thousand fish mind you) and several other largish breeders i know here in NSW jar their fish some use beanie boxes with filtration but most are jared with daily waterchanges especially the juveniles when they start to become agressive. I used 1-1.2L containers. There is really no other way to keep them in large numbers and grow them to saleable size.
 
So what size ''appropriate wooden enclosure'' will you be housing your wheatbelt in as an adult? :rolleyes:

3x1.5x1.5 no need to get smart mate. I just like to house my favourite reps in display enclosures. . I have racks also so don't get me wrong[/QUOTE]

So this is what i dont understand.... mine are kept in racks 3x2 foot. Are my snakes less happy for this housing?!?!?!?!
 
mind you the breeders i know are more hobbyist breeders not commercial breeders but they still produce many hundreds of fish, they mainly keep them in custom made divided tanks

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 12:49 AM ----------

3x1.5x1.5 no need to get smart mate. I just like to house my favourite reps in display enclosures. . I have racks also so don't get me wrong

So this is what i dont understand.... mine are kept in racks 3x2 foot. Are my snakes less happy for this housing?!?!?!?![/QUOTE]

yes because snakes dont like to be in a plain enclosure, they like colors and textures and pretty things
 
I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.



I know you say we don't all have to agree with your point of view, and likewise i am not asking anyone to agree with mine. But, because i keep my snakes in tubs (large ones), you are saying i am not a snake lover/enthusiast? I will let you know, i don't breed my snakes, i never have done. So can not be classed as a snake farmer. Also, i only have 11 snakes, not a huge collection.

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 11:55 AM ----------

yes because snakes dont like to be in a plain enclosure, they like colors and textures and pretty things

lol.... don't worry Hornet, i play classical music to them in the evening, i also sing and dance to them when i have the time. They love it!
 
I know you say we don't all have to agree with your point of view, and likewise i am not asking anyone to agree with mine. But, because i keep my snakes in tubs (large ones), you are saying i am not a snake lover/enthusiast? I will let you know, i don't breed my snakes, i never have done. So can not be classed as a snake farmer. Also, i only have 11 snakes, not a huge collection.

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 11:55 AM ----------



lol.... don't worry Hornet, i play classical music to them in the evening, i also sing and dance to them when i have the time. They love it!

they seem to have a strong preference for interpretative dance, not big hip hop fans
 
Jay, don't take it personally. I used 'snake farmer' as a loose example, people keeping elapids for milking, zoo reptiles in off-limits areas, reptile exhibitors, and others keep their reptiles in tubs or similar enclosures. I can see the reason for it in those circumstances but I can't see what pleasure can a hobbyist have from ..... no need to repeat what I said already. That's my opinion, that's how I see it, don't hold it against me. I have a collection of snake skulls and a collection of antique shotguns. if I couldn't see it and admire it every time I walk pass, I would get rid of it. Can you understand my point of view?
 
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