Keeping snakes in small containers

[cadwallader]

wow that enclosure is amazing no one can say that a snake would prefer to live in that then a plain tubs, also i would look at the tub for a minute i could look at that for hours

 

[Wookie]

yes because snakes dont like to be in a plain enclosure, they like colors and textures and pretty things

You say that like it is ridiculous to imagine? I know birds like toys and things to chew or climb on in their cages. Why not snakes. I know for one that my snake likes exploring every inch of her enclosure. Always camping out somewhere different. Ledges on the fake wall, in her hides, on her branches and vines, in/on her substrate. I know she would survive in a tub, with newspaper a bowl and a cardboard box. I try to imitate their natural environment. We need a two tailed randomised controlled trial with both wild caught and captive bred specimens. See which they choose to crawl into when put side by side. Or do we think/know that snakes aren't smart enough to make an informed decision and will just randomly choose one or the other?

Dogs are perfectly healthy if they aren't given toys to play with but I reckon they are happier when they have their toys. Personally I don't think the argument of health factors into this. Its more about enrichment of the environment. Which is ambiguous. Because nobody knows the intelligence of a snake.

 

[cadwallader]

i have tried this i had 2 hides next to each other both exactly the same, but one had newspaper and one had aspen bedding and i never saw him in the newspaper one so i swapped the hides around even thought they were the same and still he moved to the aspen so fluffy doesnt like newspaper as much as aspen.... imo

 

[Wookie]

Apples & oranges, hmmmm. Have you seen Boyds in the wild? They sit on a tree trunks for hours waiting for insects to get within their reach. They are as solitary as snakes and being thermoconformers, they don't move in and out of sun spots.

"generally the same basics"? That's a bit of generalization Paul.

Those ferns real Michael?

 

[-Katana-]

Apples & oranges, hmmmm. Have you seen Boyds in the wild? They sit on a tree trunks for hours waiting for insects to get within their reach. They are as solitary as snakes and being thermoconformers, they don't move in and out of sun spots.

"generally the same basics"? That's a bit of generalization Paul.

WOW!!
I have always been struck by your enclosures and the effort you put into providing a natural environment for your animals.
May I be cheeky and ask the dimensions of that enclosure and how long your python is.

Thanks,
Akwendi.

 

[cris]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that many snakes like to be in small secure areas where they cant be seen, there are exceptions obviously. Some snakes are well suited to display enclosures, but its much harder to provide a good healthy environment and with many species you wont see them unless you force them to bask in the open.

I would prefer to have all my snakes in $800+ display enclosures, but an $8 tub does the job just as well from the snakes POV. On the subject of providing stimulus there is no differance between a tub and a display enclosure although many display enclosures would do a better job of stimulating stress if not carefully designed. I make no apologies for not spending money when it makes no differance to the snakes well being.

As far as keeping rats in tubs, i think its as bad as the worst examples of intensive farming. I wouldnt ever keep rats in tubs, although 200l+ tubs would be OK. One should keep in mind that rats are smart, extremely active and social animals, while most snakes are stupid solitary animals that are fairly inactive and require much less space.

 

[hornet]

Apples & oranges, hmmmm. Have you seen Boyds in the wild? They sit on a tree trunks for hours waiting for insects to get within their reach. They are as solitary as snakes and being thermoconformers, they don't move in and out of sun spots.

"generally the same basics"? That's a bit of generalization Paul.

Sorry that comment was a bit off topic when talking about boyds, as you said they too are a ambush predator that primarily lives a solitary life which is common for most of the larger lizards. Whilst yes most keepers keep boyds and angle heads in a more landscaped enclosure but they could be kept just as easily in a more basic setup aswell, i dont believe it to be essential to landscape an enclosure. I dont see that comment as a generalization. Both basic and landscaped enclosures typically have the same thing, perches, hides, lighting, heating etc, just different materials and objects are used to fulfill those purposes to give a more natural or artificial look. Even with the more interactive lizards i do not believe a landscaped enclosure to be essential. It all comes down to the keeper and what they want and i dont believe they are any better or worse in either housing style

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 03:53 AM ----------

That's a bit of generalization Paul.

oh and my names not paul

 

[giggle]

While snakes might like to spend a good portion of their time in tight confined and secure areas... at night they like to become active also... and move around... perhaps they enjoy exploring and enjoy hunting. They may even enjoy chasing their food. I pretend the dead animals I feed my snakes are alive... wiggle them around and provide a bit of excitement for them. my diamond chases. I think especially for lazy bum diamonds, activity is important.

Waterrat... I like to think that stimulus is as important as having hides... allowing them as natural as possible activity level is as important as allowing them a secure place to retreat. My snakes have a big enough enclosure to move about and explore. They also have secure hides. At night, whether they are hungry or not... they come out and adventure around their enclosure.
Some birds also nest in hollows of trees... but it does not mean they want to spend their entire life in a box they can barely turn in.
So to answer your question... although I am a novice and my opinion is less likely the one sort ... stimulus is a basic keeping essential. It doesn't have to be in the form of pretty enclosures... but perhaps in the form of climbing facilities... snakes seem sensitive to touch... perhaps different textured objects even could provide an interesting stimulation for them.

 

[Minka]

From what i have seen most tubs and more natural looking enclosures generally have the same basics, hide, perch, heat, space. The main difference being what they are made out of ie natural looking fake rock hide vs cardboard hide. Neither of those 2 enclosure types provide what i would really call stimulus. As you know snakes are fairly "lazy", they are ambush predators so most of their time is spent either waiting for food or digesting a meal, they are a totally different animal to most lizards which are active predators and many have some kind of social structure and interact with others so comparing the way snakes are housed compared to the way lizards are housed is like comparing apples to oranges

Seeing as you used the generalized term of "snakes" and I'm sure you obviously meant "pythons" in saying that right? Because surely you cannot group the fast moving elapids who are active hunters (excluding death adders) as "lazy"? Have you ever seen a large taipan confined to even the 'largest' tubs? Or a RBB rubbing it's rostral scales almost completely off in an attempt to escape one of the small ventilation holes drilled into a tub? I know some of the more larger elapid keepers will disagree with me (if they have such a fondness for keeping all there elapids in tubs) but I have seen the above first hand and couldn't help but feel sorry for the animals. I should add I am no beardie breast feeder by the way and anyone who knows me personally can attest to that but I really don't feel you can group all snakes as a "one size fits all". I choose to keep large amounts of Morelia, Bhp's and Olive pythons. I also choose to supply them with large spacious enclosures thus having wall to wall cages. I also choose to keep most of my animals on paper for many reasons. Having said that I also keep some animals in tubs such as smaller Antaresia, animals I'm growing out, Adders, hatchlings etc. One thing all my animals have in common though is that they are all provided with ample space, hides, heat, and perches. Tubs have there place but as has been previously stated this thread I believe was started in relation to the way SnakeBytes keep there animals which I believe is completely unnecessary unless you are farming snakes.

 

[redbellybite]

Well I am one of those ''****s'' that keep snakes in tubs ...you know the type now ,no pretty things like fake plants and fancy smancy water dishes etc ..just plain ole boring breeders choice for substrate ,plastic plain water dish and some plumbing pipes for hides ,,,such a bastard I am ...

I use to have a good enclosure for my big fella ,it got busted in a move and I got him a big tub ..which at the time was only going to be a temp situation,because I felt sad that he wouldnt like living in his tub ,then I moved into my smaller place and had no room and in all honesty it hasnt bothered him either ,he sheds perfect,he eats really well and he is growing fantastic ,he now is almost 8 feet long ,I get him out for stretches and movement ,which he loves but over all when he has had enough he likes going back to his security tub ...I honestly believe its more for the human desire then the snakes when putting them in fancy done up eye candy enclosures ,which if you have the space and money to do this go for it ..but dont be pointing the bad finger at anyone that houses thiers different from you ...I HAVE SEEN SNAKES IN GREAT ENCLOSURES THAT ARE NOT CARED FOR CORRECTLY ...but thats ok it looks pretty now

 

[Wookie]

Some snakes are well suited to display enclosures, but its much harder to provide a good healthy environment.

I disagree, spot cleaning, and an occasional complete change of bedding. Barely different at all to cleaning newspaper

I would prefer to have all my snakes in $800+ display enclosures

Says it all right?

On the subject of providing stimulus there is no differance between a tub and a display enclosure although many display enclosures would do a better job of stimulating stress if not carefully designed. I make no apologies for not spending money when it makes no differance to the snakes well being.


Debatable. Who says a natural enclosure is a stressful environment? Given, it may take getting used to but so would coming from a natural one into a plastic one . Also, depends how you define wellbeing... If as lifespan then they are equal. If you define wellbeing as the activity and "lifestyle" of a wild python then there is a significant difference.

Both have their place. But I know which I prefer

 

[cris]

If someone can reproduce suitable habitat a display enclosure is going to be better, what i was trying to point out is that many people especially new keepers know SFA about trying to set up enlosures like this in a way that suits the snake. If you are keeping it in a suitable size tub it is far easier and cheaper with much less room for error.

I definately prefer display enclosures, but that is due to it looking better in my eye rather than the snakes wellbeing. I agree with what Waterat has said on this part of the topic about why people are keeping snakes etc. If i cant get around to making display enclosure for many of my reptiles within the 20-100 years they live for i would feel pretty stupid. Its just that im content to just look after the animals needs untill im able to make better looking enclosures so that my eyes can be more happy.

 

[Wookie]

If someone can reproduce suitable habitat a display enclosure is going to be better, what i was trying to point out is that many people especially new keepers know SFA about trying to set up enlosures like this in a way that suits the snake. If you are keeping it in a suitable size tub it is far easier and cheaper with much less room for error.

I definately prefer display enclosures, but that is due to it looking better in my eye rather than the snakes wellbeing. I agree with what Waterat has said on this part of the topic about why people are keeping snakes etc. If i cant get around to making display enclosure for many of my reptiles within the 20-100 years they live for i would feel pretty stupid. Its just that im content to just look after the animals needs untill im able to make better looking enclosures so that my eyes can be more happy.

Well said

 

[Waterrat]

WOW!!
I have always been struck by your enclosures and the effort you put into providing a natural environment for your animals.
May I be cheeky and ask the dimensions of that enclosure and how long your python is.

Thanks,
Akwendi.

Thanks for the compliment. The enclosure is 4' long. the woody stuff is real and all the plants artificial. As you can see, I changed it a bit (I call it enrichment), added some vertical lianas and horizontal perches and I also changed the snakes. These two are about a metre long.
I put those vertical lianas there because I thought it would look cool but surprise, this girl adopted them for perching, she camped on them like that for 4 days then she went to another spot. Exciting?

 

[itbites]

Melissa, no one said that keeping reptiles in small plastic boxes is detrimental to them. It's a matter aesthetics and the keeper's reason for keeping reptiles in the first place. Imagine going to the zoo and seeing snakes on display on newspaper, etc.. I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.

---------- Post added 15-Jan-11 at 10:15 AM ----------

Somebody said the magic word - "stimulus". Undeniably, reptiles kept in large, landscapes enclosures (periodically changed) or outdoor pits are more active and that alone has to be good for them if nothing else.

I couldn't agree more with this statement!
And at the end of the day they are not items of clothing or collectibles to be stowed away,
they are living breathing creatures that require ample space to roam & explore.

I couldn't see myself wanting to house ANY animal permanently in a plastic box regardless of the dimensions.
What would be the point in keeping an animal that you cannot see,enjoy etc?...
Also a big part of the hobby for certain enthusiasts,
is the enjoyment you get by replicating the reptiles natural environment as closely as possible.

This is just my opinion, I don't think that those housing in tubs are cruel or neglecting
their animals needs/health.
I just feel that as a keeper I prefer naturalistic habitats, because that's just what I enjoy most about keeping.

 

[hornet]

yes i will confirm this is all in relation to pythons, whist elapids are ambush predators they are alot more active and should be provided with space as such but thats what i have been saying all along, as long as they are provided adequate space, heat, shelter and perches (for arboreal species) then i dont believe they NEED to have a fancy background and naturalistic substrate and fake rock hides etc. I will also say i have a shockingly slow internet connection so i havent been able to see exactly what snakebytes keep theirs in but it seems this turned quite rapidly into a "tubs are bad" thread. As others have asked, how is a 3x2 tub any worse then a 3x1.5 wooden enclosure decked out to look appealing to the human eye? I am in no way saying natural landscaped enclosures are bad (many of you know that i love a nice well built display enclosure), all i am saying is that as long as their needs are met how can they be any worse for the snakes then tubs?

 

[thecat]

yes i will confirm this is all in relation to pythons, whist elapids are ambush predators they are alot more active and should be provided with space as such but thats what i have been saying all along, as long as they are provided adequate space, heat, shelter and perches (for arboreal species) then i dont believe they NEED to have a fancy background and naturalistic substrate and fake rock hides etc. I will also say i have a shockingly slow internet connection so i havent been able to see exactly what snakebytes keep theirs in but it seems this turned quite rapidly into a "tubs are bad" thread.

The origial post clearly said "plastic containers with not much room to move around". The large tub advocates seem to take that as an attack on all tubs. It then turned to a quality of life/stimuli argument. It would be nice to hear from the experts in snake behaviour to get their opinions on what pythons need, if anything over and above food, water and heat to have quality of life.

 

[Waterrat]

if anything over and above food, water and heat to have quality of life.

First, we would have to define "quality of life" in snake's terms. Any snake psychologists out there?
One thing I can say, an interesting, variable, heterogenous environment (in captivity) stimulates snake behaviour. There is no doubt in my mind.

 

[-Katana-]

Thanks for the compliment. The enclosure is 4' long. the woody stuff is real and all the plants artificial. As you can see, I changed it a bit (I call it enrichment), added some vertical lianas and horizontal perches and I also changed the snakes. These two are about a metre long.
I put those vertical lianas there because I thought it would look cool but surprise, this girl adopted them for perching, she camped on them like that for 4 days then she went to another spot. Exciting?

Hell yes!
It's a win/win for both keeper and snake.
Thank you for the reply.

 

[assadassa]

keepin snakes in small countainers

yea i keep rats in tubs and they probably kept cleaner and more feed than myself but all my snakes are kept in large enclosures with heat light and plenty of places to hide i suppose breeders are in it for the money and not the enjoyment