Keeping snakes in small containers

[Waterrat]

i suppose breeders are in it for the money and not the enjoyment

I beg your pardon?

 

[hornet]

as i said thats what it quickly turned into, not just that small tubs were bad but some how all tubs cannot provide a good quality of life for snakes

 

[No-two]

I like to counter balance keeping mine in tubs by not feeding them so they're always paceing looking for food, its great enrichment and stimuli for them.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Melissa, no one said that keeping reptiles in small plastic boxes is detrimental to them. It's a matter aesthetics and the keeper's reason for keeping reptiles in the first place. Imagine going to the zoo and seeing snakes on display on newspaper, etc.. I always said - if you're a snake farmer, great, keep them like battery choocks, if you're a snake lover / enthusiast keep them in landscape cages. That's just my attitude, you don't have to follow it or even agree with it.

I thought the welfare of the animals was the major concern here, not aesthetics? Why is it acceptable for large breeders to keep their animals like battery hens? Necessary venom collection etc. is possibly a different story, but nonetheless, it is certainly not ideal. I keep a lot of my animals in tubs, but I believe housing animals without ample space is unacceptable in all cases, irrespective of the amount of animals any keeper has accumulated.

Also, I don't think it's exactly logical to make a blanket statement stating that all keepers started collecting for the same reason, and I very much doubt that it is correct in all cases.

I hardly think you can draw parallels between a private collection and the animals on exhibit at the zoo. People are being charged to view animals at the zoo, and aesthetics are obviously paramount in this case. A private collection is just that - private. Most keepers don't mind newspaper, and can derive enjoyment from the animal regardless of what substrate is in the enclosure.

I am certainly no "snake farmer" so I suppose I am a "snake lover/enthusiast," but I do not keep all of my animals in landscaped enclosures. This in no way means that you derive more enjoyment from your animals than I do, it simply means that your enclosures are much more appealing, and the combination of the animal and the great enclosure would come into play. I immensely enjoy all of my animals equally - the ones I keep in display enclosures are no more appealing to me than those that are in my racks.

I keep a few larger animals in landscaped display enclosures, and I feel that they are no better off than any of those that I keep in my racks. Whilst I love the look of display enclosures (some of yours are absolutely beautiful I must add), I do not want them in every room of my house either. I love the neat, compact look of my racks, and the reduction in workload and the quick and easy cleaning is a life-saver. The fact that I can house all of the animals I keep properly (whether that is in an enclosure with ample room, or a tub with ample room) is what I believe is important here, and my use of racking systems does not mean that I am less of a "lover" or "enthusiast" than anyone that keeps all of their animals in pretty enclosures.

As long as you meet all of your animals' needs, then the rest is really an individual choice. I do not believe that one is better than the other, racking systems just simply suit some keepers better than display enclosures and vice versa.

 

[cris]

yea i keep rats in tubs and they probably kept cleaner and more feed than myself

Sorry to hear you live trapped in a tiny room full of your own excrement, hows that going for you?

 

[Waterrat]

Melissa, don't take it too personally. My posts here are general and I am not pointing finger at anyone in particular.

I thought the welfare of the animals was the major concern here, not aesthetics? Why is it acceptable for large breeders to keep their animals like battery hens? Necessary venom collection etc. is possibly a different story, but nonetheless, it is certainly not ideal. Big establishments, particularly venom collection set ups house so many snakes that it is sometimes necessary to keep them in smaller enclosures than one would like to see. This doesn't mean the snakes are kept in poor conditions. I keep a lot of my animals in tubs, but I believe housing animals without ample space is unacceptable in all cases, irrespective of the amount of animals any keeper has accumulated.

Also, I don't think it's exactly logical to make a blanket statement stating that all keepers started collecting for the same reason, and I very much doubt that it is correct in all cases. I don't quite understand where you coming from. "Keepers started collecting for the same reason" who said that?

I hardly think you can draw parallels between a private collection and the animals on exhibit at the zoo. Why not? People are being charged to view animals at the zoo, and aesthetics are obviously paramount in this case. Charging money has nothing to do with it - Zoos have obligations to educate the public. It's not about the "look" it's about showing the viewers a piece of the animal's habitat. A private collection is just that - private. Most keepers don't mind newspaper, and can derive enjoyment from the animal regardless of what substrate is in the enclosure. Fair enough.

I am certainly no "snake farmer" so I suppose I am a "snake lover/enthusiast," but I do not keep all of my animals in landscaped enclosures. It's your choice, your prerogative. This in no way means that you derive more enjoyment from your animals than I do, it simply means that your enclosures are much more appealing, and the combination of the animal and the great enclosure would come into play. The difference is in that you deprive yourself from observing the animal's natural behaviour but if that doesn't interest you, so be it. It is very important to me. I immensely enjoy all of my animals equally - the ones I keep in display enclosures are no more appealing to me than those that are in my racks.

I keep a few larger animals in landscaped display enclosures, and I feel that they are no better off than any of those that I keep in my racks. Whilst I love the look of display enclosures (some of yours are absolutely beautiful I must add), I do not want them in every room of my house either. I love the neat, compact look of my racks, and the reduction in workload and the quick and easy cleaning is a life-saver. The fact that I can house all of the animals I keep properly (whether that is in an enclosure with ample room, or a tub with ample room) is what I believe is important here, and my use of racking systems does not mean that I am less of a "lover" or "enthusiast" than anyone that keeps all of their animals in pretty enclosures. No one is accusing of being less .... this & that. There are however many keepers who keep their animals in racks for different reasons to yours.

As long as you meet all of your animals' needs, then the rest is really an individual choice. I do not believe that one is better than the other, racking systems just simply suit some keepers better than display enclosures and vice versa. You have said it - "suits".

cheers

 

[brayden49]

Lol i didn't relise this thread would cause so much controversy
keep the opinions coming.

 

[giggle]

As long as you meet all of your animals' needs, then the rest is really an individual choice. I do not believe that one is better than the other, racking systems just simply suit some keepers better than display enclosures and vice versa.

Absolutely... I think that if you can provide them the enrichment or the chance to behave as naturally as possible in captivity... in a tub... it probably makes no difference to the snake. Perhaps depending on the species, an opaque tub with all needs accounted for and ample space would be preferable to the snake itself. You are certainly one for detail Melissa, I can not imagine you missing any of your snakes needs.

When you look at snakebytes... you can not deny they are snake farmers.

Right now I have a beardie in quarantine. She is in a tub. She has everything the other beardie has, however, being in a tub means she is easier to monitor, she can be moved quickly should she need to be rushed off to the vet and I can keep her in a different room herps would not normally be in. Tubs surely have their place... but thats not the point Keeping a huge snake in a tiny tub that it can not even lift its head above its body... that is not even a third of its total length... that when curled up they take up two thirds of it... tis pretty sad. I haven't heard of any aussie keepers doing such a thing. But I have seen it repeated many times in the US.

 

[Darlyn]

I must admit that I wonder about frillies being kept in enclosures. In the wild they gallop around everywhere and I can't see them being able to do this in captivity.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Charging money has nothing to do with it - Zoos have obligations to educate the public. It's not about the "look" it's about showing the viewers a piece of the animal's habitat.

You are correct, but it is still not relevant to the discussion - private keepers do not have any such obligations to educate the public.

I am not taking your posts in particular personally, this is just a debate I have had many times and there are many people who do indeed look down upon those that keep animals in tubs. Some of your posts came across as such that I felt the need to gain clarification.

Now after further discussion, it appears we are virtually on the same page, just with different methods of keeping. It did not appear that way upon reading your earlier posts.

This is an interesting topic, and if anyone has any relevant papers or knows of any studies that may be of interest (effects of stimuli in the enclosure on the animal etc.) please post them. Have had a dig around in the past without much success.

Absolutely... I think that if you can provide them the enrichment or the chance to behave as naturally as possible in captivity... in a tub... it probably makes no difference to the snake. Perhaps depending on the species, an opaque tub with all needs accounted for and ample space would be preferable to the snake itself. You are certainly one for detail Melissa, I can not imagine you missing any of your snakes needs.

Agreed and thank-you, I do my best.

Keeping a huge snake in a tiny tub that it can not even lift its head above its body... that is not even a third of its total length... that when curled up they take up two thirds of it... tis pretty sad. I haven't heard of any aussie keepers doing such a thing. But I have seen it repeated many times in the US.

Also agree. I personally know of a large Scrubby that is very inadequately housed, and I doubt he is an isolated case. It is sad, and what's just as sad is that some people tar all that keep animals in racks with the same brush as those that keep animals in cramped conditions.

 

[yommy]

yes zoos have pretty caging for those on display, what about behind the scenes with the other reptiles not on display, they are kept in smaller caging. smaller caging, even tubs can still met the needs of the animals when done properly. All my hatchies start of in hatchy tubs for 12 months before going to display cages. I am fortunate to have the space and not an extremely large collection, other don't have that luxury i am not going to hold it against them especially if they met the needs of there animals and have happy healthy animals.

 

[craig.a.c]

Keeping hatchies in tubs is fine but larger snakes is wrong and cruel.

 

[Snakeluvver2]

Micheal I think reptiles pythons in particular get more enrichment or stimulus out of different smells.
Sometimes I randomly add some feathers or rat droppings in the cage.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Keeping hatchies in tubs is fine but larger snakes is wrong and cruel.

These are exactly the statements that I was talking about above.

So keeping a large snake in a large tub, providing ample space, a perch, hides, heating and all the rest is cruel in your opinion? How so exactly? Enlighten us. Is it because the tub isn't made of wood and doesn't have a glass front?

 

[user 23122]

Smaller collections, bigger enclosures, and deeper knowledge of our wild herps are all things which should be encouraged in the hobby.

sums it up perfectly

 

[giggle]

Also agree. I personally know of a large Scrubby that is very inadequately housed, and I doubt he is an isolated case. It is sad, and what's just as sad is that some people tar all that keep animals in racks with the same brush as those that keep animals in cramped conditions.

This is true... its also true that animals can be inadequately housed in display enclosures Whether it be size or set up.

These are exactly the statements that I was talking about above.

So keeping a large snake in a large tub, providing ample space, a perch, hides, heating and all the rest is cruel in your opinion? How so exactly? Enlighten us. Is it because the tub isn't made of wood and doesn't have a glass front?

Its funny... I saw a video on youtube of someone that had quite cleverly converted your plain old crazy clarks tub into a beardie enclosure... and they got so many negative comments on it being inadequate... just because it looked cheap. But it covered all the animals needs. It was secure and would have held a nice gradient and probably alot better than an aquarium. Still, it looked cheap and home made. People often have a hard time separating their own personal aesthetic feelings from their animals preferences. In rural areas a heck of a lot of lizards love using your old half rusted corro iron as hides. They dont care how it looks but it functions perfectly. If it functions in the best way it can to promote that behaviour, it shouldnt matter how it looks to a human.
Just as a piece of dowel works as well as a natural branch for a young arboreal animal... but its my personal preference to have a natural branch. Maybe texture and size variation of a natural branch makes a difference but probably only slightly.

 

[Snakeluvver2]

lol People on here keep comparing pythons to cats and other animals in this thread.
They arn't anything but pythons.
Keep that in mind.

 

[craig.a.c]

These are exactly the statements that I was talking about above.

So keeping a large snake in a large tub, providing ample space, a perch, hides, heating and all the rest is cruel in your opinion? How so exactly? Enlighten us. Is it because the tub isn't made of wood and doesn't have a glass front?

Do they have enough room to stretch out more then half their body length?
If not I think its wrong, cruel. Just my opinion though, so I don't give a flying **** what others think.

 

[-Matt-]

Keeping hatchies in tubs is fine but larger snakes is wrong and cruel.

So what your saying is it is perfectly fine to keep a hatchling Antaresia in a 7 litre tub but cruel to keep an adult in an 80L tub? That makes no sense.

 

[Waterrat]

Smaller collections, bigger enclosures, and deeper knowledge of our wild herps are all things which should be encouraged in the hobby.

sums it up perfectly

This is the best statement in the whole thread. Non-confronting, constructive, inspiring and practical piece of advice.