What is "experience"?

[cement]

Here is an example... I sold a clutch of diamonds off this year and had a young fella contact me saying it hadn't fed for two months.He had taken it to the vet and the yet gave him some wrong advice and force fed it for him. Still having trouble he finally called me and we set about getting it going. I got him to send me photos of the cage etc and I worked out the problem. A few days later he sent me an email saying it was now smashing its food.

Now on the other hand, others have obviously had no problems, as i haven't heard anything back from them except good feedback that everything is going well and how stoked they are with the snake.

Now, I as a breeder would prefer to hear the second option, but really I think the young fella who had the problems has now actually gained the most experience. Because of the changes he had to make to its set up, he got to hear what I had to say, and now see it working in practice, he knows why it works.
As much as it is good to hear the good feedback reports, its also good to be able to teach and help someone gain experience.

 

[montay]

Interesting thread.
I do, however, think there is something to be gained by understanding the ecology of the snakes we keep.
One might argue that the way we keep them is far removed from their natural habitat - but should it be?
Having at least some understanding of how snakes behave in their natural habitat, their ecology and habits in the wild can directly inform husbandry practices. I personally believe that good husbandry, successful breeding and the ability to problem solve with good effect are informed by a myriad of sources: reading, the school of experience, mentoring, and an appreciation of ecology.
Having an open-mind, and always accepting that there is so much more to learn are also important components in the jigsaw puzzle that constitutes 'experience'.

 

[dpeica]

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[Kavik]

And if your talking to me, I'm not telling anyone anything. This is an opinion based post, I don't think natural behaviour or ecology is needed to gain experince. That is all. You can tell someone not to keep a mulga in with a northern blue tongue in with a Mulga, they don't need to know they are natural prey/predator to gain that experience.

I know my examples are very loose, but it comes down to the first question is it needed.

If you have one snake, as a pet, they aren't going to care what ecology it is. They just want to know that the heat mat, tub and waterbowl is sufficient to keep it healthy.

However if you have a rescued red belly that needs car and has naturally fed on frogs, having the knowledge of them being frog and reptile eaters to scent mice will help.

Ultimately it's IS IT REQUIRED VS WILL IT MAKE A BETTER KEEPER, and yes it will but it's not required to keep. IMO.



Completely agree, you can have knowledge but wisdom comes with age. Same with keeping.

This is a really interesting discussion. While I don't yet have a snake, I am currently reading and researching everything I can find. Still need to get that book though!

Not quite on topic but does relate to the post I quoted - I am helping one of my friends with her PhD which she is doing on the care of dogs, and one of the things we are looking at is what things are essential to a good dog owner/carer, and which are likely (but not necessary) - it is the likely but not necessary ones which makes the difference between the standard owner and the enthusiast It is proving to be very interesting research.

 

[Elapidae1]

Gillsy "Completely agree, you can have knowledge but wisdom comes with age. Same with keeping".

Wisdom doesn't come with age or length of time in the hobby but rather with depth of experience and then whether the lessons from those experiences have been taken on board and learnt from.
I have seen keepers on this forum who even though they have kept for years still ask questions you would expect from someone just entering the hobby.
Cement has given a great example of someone gaining a greater depth of experience regardless of how long a person has been in the hobby only a few posts earlier.

 

[Waterrat]

My greatest experience was working in a Zoo with several hundred animals (reptiles). Such large collection not only offers frequent challenges but you also have to adapt routine and practices that are quite different to maintaining a private collection. Daily checks and clean ups, maintenance of effective exhibits, rotating demo animals, budgeting, performing simple veterinary procedures (there has never been enough money in the budget to call a qualified vet), etc.. and I learned a lot from my colleagues.

Slightly off the topic, the word "love" often pops up discussions related to the care for our reptiles. Personally, I always treated reptiles as wild animals, never as pets but that doesn't mean they received any less attention - to the contrary, I think if you can put emotions aside and approach animals with a sober, clear head attitude, you can concentrate better on the task of looking after them.
Those who knew the legendary late Stan Stirling of Kuranda would agree that Stan "loved" his animals but he never really understood them. Many died, escaped, got eaten, got neglected ...... but Stan loved them to death.

 

[waruikazi]

Interesting question & reading!
I remember an article from Dave Barker measuring experience in "snake years". Keep 1 snake for 1 year, you have 1 snake year experience. Have a pair that bred 10 babies & keep them all for a year, you have 12 snake years experience. I dare say a few of the bigger breeders wouldn't be able to add this up now though!

I think experience mostly comes from hands on keeping. Getting a young animal & growing it up to be a healthy adult is good experience. I guess the most respected experience is captive breeding your animals.

I think reading all you can find on the particular animals you own, knowing an animals ecology, natural behaviour & natural history will make you a better keeper.

I don't disagree that most people think that if you have bred or are breeding your animals then you are experienced but i do not agree with the statement 'Breeding makes you experienced.' I know you didn't say it, but it is something that seems to come up time and time again. The last abusive PM i got was a member telling me that i don't know anything because i don't even breed reptiles lol.

Just because a keeper has bred their animals does not mean they are an accomplished keeper. Most of the species that keepers are breeding at the moment do not need any special requirements and will breed in sub-standard conditions.

 

[Waterrat]

Just because a keeper has bred their animals does not mean they are an accomplished keeper. Most of the species that keepers are breeding at the moment do not need any special requirements and will breed in sub-standard conditions.

That's an interesting angle. I never thought of it that way, so we have specialists and generalists in our ranks. It makes sense, someone keeping and breeding diamonds for 20 years is going to be a top expert on diamonds but could he/she maintain lizards, elapids, crocs, turtles, aquatic reptiles and some of the oddities?
So, contrary to my initial statement, "experience" does has boundaries and limits.

 

[waruikazi]

That's an interesting angle. I never thought of it that way, so we have specialists and generalists in our ranks. It makes sense, someone keeping and breeding diamonds for 20 years is going to be a top expert on diamonds but could he/she maintain lizards, elapids, crocs, turtles, aquatic reptiles and some of the oddities?
So, contrary to my initial statement, "experience" does has boundaries and limits.

I suppose so. I wouldn't know the first thing about keeping a bearded dragon but i could keep just about any freshwater turtle.

 

[ntvnm]

what about dealing with OPMV

 

[Waterrat]

In what sense?

 

[J-A-X]

I think knowing an animals ecology & natural behaviour is an important part of owning any animal, not just reptiles. It gives a better understanding of why they do what they do, and what is classified as normal behaviour and what isn't. Just because we keep our snakes in a non natural environment it doesnt mean that we should shove aside what nature has spent eons perfecting. If knowing the ecology and natural behaviour of animals wasn't considered important then zoos would still be rows upon rows of iron bars and concrete floors.

and no, my signature wasn't created for this thread, its been that way for maybe a year......

 

[Dipcdame]

Gleaned from the Wikipedia pages -
"Experience as a general concept comprises knowledge of or skill in or observation of some thing or some event gained through involvement in or exposure to that thing or event.[1] The history of the word experience aligns it closely with the concept of experiment.

The concept of experience generally refers to know-how or procedural knowledge, rather than propositional knowledge: on-the-job training rather than book-learning. Philosophers dub knowledge based on experience "empirical knowledge" or "a posteriori knowledge".

The interrogation of experience has a long tradition in continental philosophy. Experience plays an important role in the philosophy of Søren Kierkegaard. The German term Erfahrung, often translated into English as "experience", has a slightly different implication, connoting the coherency of life's experiences.

A person with considerable experience in a certain field can gain a reputation as an expert."

EXPERIENCE is gained over a period of time, with the help of KNOWLEDGE from books and other keepers, Experience comes from not only learning the knowledge and "rules" of keeping reptiles, but of also learning the 'exceptions', the know-how gained from other keepers that doesn't come in text-books!

 

[Waterrat]

"Jimmy Hendrix Experience"

 

[Elapidae1]

Thats a fairly good explanation Dipcdame but I have a problem with the "experience is gained over time" part. How much time? How many experiences does one have to have before they are considered experienced and in what time frame? Can someone experience many differenrt aspects of reptile keeping and still have gleaned very little knowledge from it? I think so. Does being experienced neccesarily make one a better keeper or give them a larger knowledge base than someone less expereienced but more attentative to the experiences they have? Being a more experienced keeper means very little if you failed to learn a lesson from each experience had.

 

[Waterrat]

Totally agree Steve, also, one has to have the capacity to correctly interpret what they see and that's where knowledge plays a role. E.g. if a python is submerged in its water bowl for a couple of days, an experienced keeper would straightaway look for mites, whilst other person may think the snake is enjoying a bath, must be too hot.

 

[byron_moses]

i think it comes from not only reading but talking to people and starting off small with your basic reptiles and working your way up as you feel more confident

 

[waruikazi]

i think it comes from not only reading but talking to people and starting off small with your basic reptiles and working your way up as you feel more confident

I dunno, i got my elapid handling experience by jumping in the deep end.

 

[byron_moses]

I dunno, i got my elapid handling experience by jumping in the deep end.

i also know people who have done that and got experience to..........in a hospital

 

[Guest]

every little bit counts