Popping Hatchies

[jham66]

WARNING: Do not attempt this if you are rough handed or inexperienced, research thoroughly before you handle hatchlings.




I just had a go at popping some hatchie Bredli and just thought I would post the experience to add some pearls of new found wisdom.

* It takes far less pressure than I thought it would!

* Luckily my first snake to attempt to 'pop' was Male. This helped immensely! I would suggest trying three or four snakes gently before changing technique, if you find a male you will know you are doing it right! If a few don't pop as males in a row, keep going, you can always go back and try again. I found I would loose confidence for a few, and then I would find another male and my confidence would be back.

* If you press your first finger and thumb together, the amount of pressure that only just begins to whiten the area under the thumb nail is the pressure used.

* Only one hemipene popped most times, but that's all it takes!

* I re-popped a male after I got 4 females in a row, his hemipene popped immediately. I then re-popped the females and was certain they were all female!

* I placed my thumb so when rolled forward the tip of my thumb would roll just to the posterior side of the cloaca, maybe 2mm back from the cloaca opening.

* Hatchies have far more wee than I thought possible!

* One hatchie bit! (4 days old) this was not a defence bite! He held on and tried to constrict! Sadly I felt a couple of teeth snap :-( as he constricted around his own neck!

.

* Females have a small white protrusion(when popping) from the centre of the cloaca and small openings (caudal scent gland) approximately in the same position as the hemipenes on the male. She has spurs like the male

 

[-Katana-]

Thank you so much for sharing and describing that experience with us, Jham.

Can I ask that if you are going to sex hatchies again could you please take some pictures so we know what to look for?
I know it's probably a big ask and you'll no doubt need more arms than an Octopus to hold the hatchie, pop it and operate the camera.

Cheers,
~Akwendi.

 

[Ramsayi]

All good except one point..............If they don't pop you still cannot be "certain" that you have a female.I suggest probing the suspected females to get a more definitive answer.

 

[FAY]

Can they be 'popped' at anytime or only when they emerge from the egg?

 

[jham66]

I agree Ramsayi.
I will have the Females probed, after they have a few feeds and grow a little though. At 6 males: 15 females it seems an unlikely ratio......

Fay,
from what I have read it is best done in the first two weeks, after that the musculature of the males prevents the hemipene from popping. Apparently some adult snakes will allow a partial eversion of the hemipene which is all you need. Some recommended taking the snake as soon as it hatched, give it a wash, and then pop it.

Akwendi,
I will try and get an assistant next time. I did have my daughter there, but her camera skills need a lot of work. I ended up taking the camera off her as we were both getting frustrated. Impossible as one person!!

For interest sake I popped the females at least two times, three times for the 6 in a row, and that is putting the hatchie back in the box doing a few more and then going back. I was about 80% sure with my end results, making sure my technique was good and as reproducible as I could get with big thumbs on little snakes.

I will "Pop" the females again in a week and see if I get any more males. I will post the results to this page again.

Results:
A: FEMALE
B: MALE (the first snake I popped)
C: FEMALE
D: FEMALE
E: FEMALE
F: FEMALE
G: FEMALE
H: FEMALE
I: MALE
J: MALE
K: FEMALE
L: FEMALE
M: FEMALE
N: FEMALE
O: MALE
P: MALE
Q: FEMALE
R: MALE
S: FEMALE
T: FEMALE
U: FEMALE

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Just my opinion... but I don't think putting this on a website is appropriate in any way. The potential for damage to the animals is very high in the hands of novices, and the poster has no idea of the expertise of those who may try it at home. There was a recent post on removing eggs from a supposedly eggbound female, the animal died with its guts hanging out.

I don't think it's appropriate for novices to probe young snakes either, especially if they haven't been shown directly by someone who knows what they're doing.

Both of these sexing practices have the potential to cause significant damage if done injudiciously.

Jamie

 

[jham66]

I read the eggbound thread and was appalled that anyone would attempt to remedy a life threatening event by a 'home job'. Popping is nothing like that!

I wouldn't attempt to probe without an experienced person to give direction and critique, but that is an internal examination using a potentially dangerous implement. I would disagree with anyone who suggested these two techniques of sexing were even remotely close in potential risk and would go as far as to say that it is a safer option to probing. You cannot be 100% sure on females, but you remove the need to probe all Pop positive males.

The technique requires a gentile hand and some knowledge of anatomy and in my opinion it is well within the realms of anyone capable of obtaining or possessing both of these qualities. You can observe the technique by searching the Internet, I watched at least 10 clips and on my first attempt was fully prepared to desist if it felt in any way damaging to the snake. Luckily the first snake was male and his hemipene practically fell out.... it was almost embarrassing.....

I would expect that if this technique were to cause damage it would be from someone trying to pop a female and using inappropriate force. I think my post has an educational value in offering an advice as to how little pressure is used.

In the end this thread is at the discretion of the moderators and I am more than happy to abide by their ruling.

Justin

 

[Syn2554]

I think this is interesting since I've never even heard of it before, but Pythoninfinate has raised an issue incredibly close to my heart, and that's the welfare of the animals. I loved reading your post, Jham, and I know I would never try anything like that, but I like that Jamie said, in reguards to anyone novice who might want to try it. Hopefully, though, nobody novice will be going anywhere near just-hatched snakes, let alone breeding them!
Cec

 

[AM Pythons]

thats what you get when you listen to so-called experts on the internet...instead of doing what you planned on the first place.. sorry but anyone that tells you anything on the internet, dont listen to them... take it from me...

 

[jham66]

The Internet is full of rubbish, but it is an incredible resource.... you just need to filter out the crud from the good stuff. Google will offer you pages of information on any topic you search, just never trust one persons opinion (myself included) and allow common sense to prevail.

Even my 7 y/o daughter will offer the advice "just Google it" if we are all uninformed on a subject.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

It's the 'common sense' that's often a scarce commodity, especially, but not restricted to, newbies. To be able to filter the good from the bad on the internet you have to have some basic understanding of your subject. I don't, for a minute jham66, suggest that you were injudicious in doing what you did if you were armed with a bit of knowledge before you started, but there will be members here who will try the same stuff without the slightest idea of what they're doing, or of snake anatomy. You only have to see how some handle their animals to realise that subtlty is not a characteristic of all members.

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

I just hope no one, not even you jham66 will try to pop new-born GTPs. I equally hope you all know why.

 

[Southside Morelia]

Umm, I agree with Michael & Jamie as well. You may have the expertise to do this but 90% of the others on here don't! It may be interesting to some even myself for that matter, i don't do this personally, but in hindsight, maybe post in the old farts section, at least newbs aren't there.
Cheers...

 

[jham66]

Waterrat,
I didn't know about GTP delicate spines, but do now thanks to your post. In fact I would hazard a guess that not many people do, I have seen plenty of posts of GTP hatchies being handled. A few of the sites I found when Googleing suggested not handling until they are yearlings. I find this fact a bit confusing as I would have thought that, being arboreal, they would need quite a strong musculature and spine...

I one day would like to own a pair of GTP's but at this stage have gained little knowledge about their care, apart from a need for increased humidity and an tall enclosure. I just find them aesthetically pleasing, although I have read that some don't handle well.

For completion, I re-popped today. The only different result I got was that "B" didn't pop this time. All of the others popped the same. This is the final pop, any future sexing will be done by probing on these snakelets as they are 2 weeks old on Tuesday. I have read that over two weeks of age popping is not as accurate.

I have also put a warning at the top.....

 

[Luohanfan]

I think this thread is very informative, and with all the added comments, im sure anyone reading this will understand that this is just a members experience with what they have tried..
I think having as many informative threads like this (And constructive criticism in following posts) on Aps as possible is a great thing.
I Wouldn't attempt this myself at this stage, but like to have as much knowledge as possible available on this forum as possible, as a lot of the time i find interesting threads without actively searching for that particular information..
I myself will do a lot more research on this subject, and of course would advise others to do the same, but i have found this thread a great starting point.
Thank-you jham66..

P.s, for those who don't know, why should this technique be avoided with GTP?
Because they can be susceptible to prolapse?

 

[Ramsayi]

P.s, for those who don't know, why should this technique be avoided with GTP?
Because they can be susceptible to prolapse?

Because their tails are really delicate and popping would cause permanent tail kinks.

 

[hugsta]

I also believe this shouldn't be tried by anyone who has not at least witnessed this first hand by a more experinced keeper. Although it can be easy to do, it can also damage your animals. It is no worse than probing your snakes, if done properly, both are relatively easy, but done wrong or with too much force, can be detrimental to your animals. Research is always a plus, but it doesn't beat watching someone experienced doing this right in front of you explaining and educating you as they go. JMO

 

[Waterrat]

GTP hatchlings are very small and delicate snakes compared to other pythons, perhaps with the exception of Antaresia. The prehensile tail is thin and popping can easily damage the spine. Any handling of the tail region is a delicate operation, not to mention applying pressure onto it. That's the main reason, nothing to do with rectal prolapse.

GTP neonates can be handled from the day they pop out the eggs but extreme caution has to be taken when "unwrapping" them from a perch. The reason why many keepers don't handle GTPs too often is, they are nocturnal snakes and waking them up can lead to stress. At night, they can be a bit nippy.

 

[jham66]

Thanks Waterrat, good information.

Hugsta, I watched some very experienced people performing popping before I attempted it, not in person, but on youtube. Some of these people's experience would rival the best in Australia. Do you qualify this as suitable for tutorship? I know people have very differing opinion on the merit of online tutors. I for one am all for it. I am a medical scientist and we often see conferences in DVD form.

 

[jham66]

Ok, the probe results are in!

Only one probed definitively differently to the original Pop sexing. A great result I think, although I am a bit disappointed with "the one". Don't know how I could better perform the pop test to eliminate the incorrect one. Incidentally I had one inconclusive probe as well. This one I think is female, the probe inserted about 1/3 of the distance the males probed, but this is still about twice as far as the females??!!

Results:
A: FEMALE
B: MALE (the first snake I popped)
C: FEMALE Probed MALE
D: FEMALE
E: FEMALE
F: FEMALE
G: FEMALE
H: FEMALE
I: MALE
J: MALE
K: FEMALE
L: FEMALE Probed long but shorter than male
M: FEMALE
N: FEMALE
O: MALE
P: MALE
Q: FEMALE
R: MALE
S: FEMALE
T: FEMALE
U: FEMALE