Breeding Debate

[fugawi]

You don't get me.....I may have used the wrong wording. Instead of "Big name" maybe I should say "Professional, high volume"....You know, breeders that hand out a card, have a trading name etc. I am a great believer that these guys breed great quality, good temperament, beautiful herps and have their place in the industry but in the past, because of the overheads, they have kept the price highish, sometimes ridiculously high ($4500 for a 3 inch gecko). I fully understand the reasons for this BUT all of these companies started as newbies and they all asked stupid questions along the way and made silly mistakes. These people learned from their mistakes and grew into good companies.
Saying that, newbies need to also learn from their mistakes and have the chance to grow and learn themselves. Todays newbie is tomorrows URS. If these newbies suddenly have lots of non morph, non high yellow/red, average, boring, standard (Instead of writing low quality) beardies and get rid of them for $20 each then that is good for competition and for getting "Dads kid" into the hobby AND for getting that kid into conserving and studying aussie natives....all good things.
At the end of the day BOTH have their place and do their jobs. Most of the newbies DON'T start out trying to breed GTPs or Rough Scales.......I agree they would be idiots but it is their money to waste.

 

[Waterrat]

I got you now. The difference is, the old hands learned by mistakes ( and success) because there was no one to give advise, the communication channels were nothing like today and breeding reptiles was in infancy.
I noticed that many new-comers today aren't listing to advice. They set their minds and goals, get their animals and then ask questions on forums when things go pear shape. Those are the newbies that are discouraged from breeding by the rest of the herp community. How often you see threads on here "what should I get next?" or "what can I put into my 4' tank?" I don't think I could bring myself to reply.

 

[Snakeluvver2]

Oh, put a woma and some skinks in it Water-rat.
Maybe a bearded dragon and a carpet python together..
It really annoys me (someone new to the hobbie) that there are people who can't even work that out and yet want to think about breeding :O Raising and incubating.
Jesus, I wonder how they get dressed in the morning yet alone care for animals

 

[-Katana-]

Oh, put a woma and some skinks in it Water-rat.
Maybe a bearded dragon and a carpet python together..
It really annoys me (someone new to the hobbie) that there are people who can't even work that out and yet want to think about breeding :O Raising and incubating.
Jesus, I wonder how they get dressed in the morning yet alone care for animals

*groans*
Holy snapping ducks feet!
I just read that thread!

 

[saximus]

Oh, put a woma and some skinks in it Water-rat.
Maybe a bearded dragon and a carpet python together..
It really annoys me (someone new to the hobbie) that there are people who can't even work that out and yet want to think about breeding :O Raising and incubating.
Jesus, I wonder how they get dressed in the morning yet alone care for animals

No Jannico you silly. They had been quarantined for two weeks and they were small so it would have been fine. Geez some people don't know anything

 

[-Katana-]

No Jannico you silly. They had been quarantined for two weeks and they were small so it would have been fine. Geez some people don't know anything

:lol:

 

[moosenoose]

Nah moose, you just lack the incredible skill it takes to breed pythons. Only ''reputable'' breeders should be allowed to participate otherwise who knows what could happen, we could see a flood of defective snakes with neurological issues being bred...

Yes I believe you're right After all I still talk to my animals knowing full well they are deaf :lol:

 

[Wookie]

Flooding any market with what you call (and I don't understand this) low quality animals (or low quality products of any sort) will more rapidly damage any market than keeping quality high and outcomes predictable...

Yeah I never understood the low quality high quality thing. "Low quality" means run of the mill snake which is often more natural than a "high quality" animal (yes i'm talking about inbreeding for traits and RPMs/crosses). As long as the snakes are healthy they are of equal quality (within reason obviously)- though of course, certain traits will be worth more money. That said, it does not make them better quality - just rarer.

 

[moosenoose]

Sometimes I just wish some of the breeders themselves don't breed. There are some pretty bad traits in amongst some of them you definately don't want passed on!

 

[Parko]

Yes I believe you're right After all I still talk to my animals knowing full well they are deaf :lol:

What's that Moose? Speak up, i can't hear the writing on my putor. Lol Seriously it is good that this kind of debate is happening, let's face it the Australian herp scene has gone on a downward spiral in recent years. We so often hear things like trendy names for trendy snakes are ''good for the hobby'', yet nowadays we are promoting the hobby to a lazy generation that spends no time in the bush learning what Australia's reptiles are really about(and indeed all of Australian biodiversity). Forums should play a role in promoting knowledge of herpetology shouldn't they? Forums should be seen to play a role in promoting herpetology even at a small level, not simply promoting the pet trade. I never had access to the knowledge of senior herpers as a kid, yet i spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours walking the bush as a youngster, and still do. A recent thread highlighted this for me when a young tassie herper wanted to collect mountain heath dragons, so all he had to do was start a thread ''where can i find mountain heath dragons?'' And bang he has his info. Worst of all is when some mug can just leapfrog all the hard work put into Australian linebreeding of purebred sub species and go and smuggle in eurotrash with defective genes, the people promoting this line of pythons are the true dregs of the Aussie herp scene. The massive consumer attitude we are creating is encouraging this nonsense. High end animals should only refer to the price they sell for, a normal/natural looking python should never be described as ''lower quality'', absolutely no work has been put into breeding ''better temperaments'' either, this is just more deceptive advertising for the suckers.

 

[Waterrat]

Parko, your words are ringing in my ears. Not long ago I posted a question "is the hobby on a downward spiral?" Oh no, it isn't, the very opposite ... were most of the replies and I got flamed by some for suggesting that it is, despite the fact I only asked the question. Funny world, this fickle hobby.

To me, a "low quality" reptile is one that doesn't look right, is not moving right, brought to me in a dirty, smelly bag by a dirty, smelly yob. A "high quality" reptile is the opposite. Whether it's a plane old coastal or high grade morph is irrelevant to me. The so called "high end" reptiles are at the high end because of their high price, not necessarily high quality. That's how I look at it.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Yep... you guys got it in one! To be fair to fugawi, I think he/she has acknowledged that the words he/she used may not have been well chosen, so 'low quality' wasn't what was meant.

Sometimes I just wish some of the breeders themselves don't breed. There are some pretty bad traits in amongst some of them you definately don't want passed on!

Well you'll all be pleased to know that I never bred... so when I go it's the end of the line!

J

 

[Waterrat]

Well you'll all be pleased to know that I never bred... so when I go it's the end of the line!

Me too. Aren't we good conservationists Jamie?

 

[waruikazi]

Me too. Aren't we good conservationists Jamie?

Not at conserving our species!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Indeed we are Michael... now Gordo, do you really think we're under threat as a species? Except from the pressure of sheer numbers of course...

J

 

[saximus]

Haha yeah I was gonna say you guys are probably doing more for the human race by not breeding

 

[waruikazi]

Indeed we are Michael... now Gordo, do you really think we're under threat as a species? Except from the pressure of sheer numbers of course...

J

Hmmm, good point...

 

[Waterrat]

Ahhh, here is a philosophical parallel; overpopulation is responsible for a global destruction of natural assets and over-breeding (of reptiles) may lead to destruction of this hobby in Oz.

 

[waruikazi]

Parko, your words are ringing in my ears. Not long ago I posted a question "is the hobby on a downward spiral?" Oh no, it isn't, the very opposite ... were most of the replies and I got flamed by some for suggesting that it is, despite the fact I only asked the question. Funny world, this fickle hobby.

To me, a "low quality" reptile is one that doesn't look right, is not moving right, brought to me in a dirty, smelly bag by a dirty, smelly yob. A "high quality" reptile is the opposite. Whether it's a plane old coastal or high grade morph is irrelevant to me. The so called "high end" reptiles are at the high end because of their high price, not necessarily high quality. That's how I look at it.

You also made a very good thread about what experience is.

 

[longqi]

I used to breed a fair few snakes and sell them quietly and am just getting back into that now
Probably the best thing to happen in Aus Herps in the last few years is the much larger number of GTPs for example
Even though it cost me money [my snakes had cost me about $10,000 each]; now anyone can own one
Overseas there are thousands of breeders of corn snakes as an example
yet there are always people wanting to buy them
Herpetology world wide is growing and becoming more affordable every year

This is mainly because of small time breeders who accidentally forced the price down
For a top quality horse you go to the best breeder and pay top dollar
But most people dont want/need the very best
They are happy with any nice snake in their lounge room