Mice popping

[firedream]

Hey everyone I'm sure this has been gone over but I couldn't find any threads.
Every timeI heat my mice the stomachs pop.
Could it be that the mice are old like frozen for too long. It used to happen early on in my snake keeping but soon realised if I defrost first all was good which I have been doing but they are still popping now. Well the last three feeds and its smelly and messy. Try getting stomach contents off a still hungry carpet. So for 2 years no popping and now every feed. I'm doing everything the same so all I can put it down to is I need some fresh mice. I'm not sure how long i have had these mice for as I forgot to write date on the bag when I froze.
What are your thoughts? (or flaming opinions haha)

 

[snakehandler]

Why are you heating them? You shouldn't need to, most captive bred animals will take dead food at room temperature!

 

[TWENTY B]

your overheating them
they are boiled..

 

[holden08]

i use just hot tap water never had a problem boild jug water will make them pop

 

[dylan-rocks]

If ur worried that they are to old, go down and buy the same sized rat or mice, defrost it and if it pops it's the temperature of ur water

 

[Octane]

You are probably cooking the mouse. Thaw in water that is warm (not hot).
Just cuirious are you feeding mice or rats - a two year old carpet should be of a size where rats would be more appropriate?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I'd guess using a microwave... had a few of those disasters myself in the past, so now only use hot tap water.

If you're not using a microwave, either you're using water that's way too hot, or the animals are semi-rotten to begin with, or both of these. Animals thawed after being fresh-frozen don't pop if you thaw them in hot water.

Jamie

 

[adzy86]

The way i defrost my rats and mice is by using room temp water and defrost them then i add a small amount of boiled water to give it a heat signature. never had a problem.

 

[hugsta]

I'd guess using a microwave... had a few of those disasters myself in the past, so now only use hot tap water.

If you're not using a microwave, either you're using water that's way too hot, or the animals are semi-rotten to begin with, or both of these. Animals thawed after being fresh-frozen don't pop if you thaw them in hot water.

Jamie

I agree with Jamie, I have been defrosting my rats and mice in hot water from the tap since I started keeping reptiles and have never had a problem. It could be they have be frozen and then slightly defrosted during transport and then refrozen again. I know this was a big problem with rodents coming from a large food supplier in QLD, into Sydney petshops for a while, they were unable to stop the defrosting during freight overnight. I assume or hope they have fixed this problem by now. So I would make sure you are getting your rodents from a reliable source.

 

[Virides]

Best way to think of it is, when you see some road kill they have bloated due to the build up of gases from the decay within the body (especially the stomach).
When the rats/mice have been frozen, all the cells in the body have been destroyed and consequently aid in the decay process upon defrosting. The moment the bacteria inside become active (not sure what temp this begins at) the bacteria will begin to produce their by products (gases and water).
When you heat up the rat/mouse after this series of events, the gasses trapped in the body expand. Gas expands faster and more prominently than liquids or solids (especially in a confined space - the stomach). Hence an explosion occurs.

 

[Waterrat]

When the rats/mice have been frozen, all the cells in the body have been destroyed and consequently aid in the decay process upon defrosting. The moment the bacteria inside become active (not sure what temp this begins at) the bacteria will begin to produce their by products (gases and water).

Based on that, I would conclude that freshly killed prey is better and safer for our snakes than defrosted. Upon defrosting, the destroyed cells form rather mushy substance, which is passed through the snake's digestive system at faster rate than fresh food. My question is, does this speedy process allow enough time for all the nutrients and essential elements to be fully absorbed by the digestive system?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

It's not just the gas buildup that causes the breakdown. When an animal is frozen and thawed with the guts left in, the bacteria in the gut begin beaking down the tissue pretty much as soon as the animal dies. This progresses to a certain stage when the animal is being frozen, until the seeping cold slows them down to (almost) a stop. Upon warming, the bacteria revive and reactivate to continue the process we know as 'decay'. There is also a degree of autolysis, which basically means 'self digestion', where the active digestive fluids in the digestive tract begin working on the body of the dead animal, because the mucus linings of the stomach and intestines lose their integrity and the mucus no longer forms a protective coat on the tissues. The gut wall of a rodent is very thin (not like my 6pack!) and close to bacteria-laden gut tissue, so it is the first part of the exterior of the rodent to break down

So it's a combination of things, but it is all temperature/time related, the longer you leave a food animal out, the more 'spoiled' it becomes. That's why quick thawing in hot water is the best way to go. If you leave something on the bench to thaw for hours at room temperature, it will be far more laden with decay bacteria than something thawed for a few minutes in hot water.

This only really applies to intact dead animals - muscle tissue, such as the carcasses you see in the butchers, has a far longer 'fresh' life because the bacterial load in the gut has been removed, and it can chill much quicker to reduce bacterial growth.

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

So Jamie, what's your take on my conclusion (hypothesis)?

 

[saximus]

So Jamie, what's your take on my conclusion (hypothesis)?

I don't know as much as Jamie but I'd think it wouldn't matter because a prey item will sit in the stomach of a snake for days while it is being digested. So the extra hour or two that the freezing/thawing process takes up wouldn't be that big by comparison

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I think you're probably quite correct Michael, but there wouldn't be much between fresh killed and snap-frozen quick-thawed rodents. One of the biggest problems occurs when rodents are dropped into a bag, still warm, and placed into a freezer as a 'lump' of animals. They should always be spread out after gassing (or whatever) and allowed to cool for 15 -30 mins, before being placed into a bag FLAT and SINGLE ANIMAL deep. Anthing more bulky than that is going to begin the process of decay before it cools sufficiently to prevent tissue breakdown. Once frozen, you can stack them as deep as you like.

J

I don't know as much as Jamie but I'd think it wouldn't matter because a prey item will sit in the stomach of a snake for days while it is being digested. So the extra hour or two that the freezing/thawing process takes up wouldn't be that big by comparison

That's true Saxy. The animals would begin to break down by the same decay processes well before the digestive juices kill off the decay bacteria. If you've ever smelled a regurg... you'll know what I mean! We always like to think that we'd feed our animals only on stuff we'd eat ourselves... but in the case of snakes, they can and do eat stuff which isn't especially fresh, with no sign of harm.

J

 

[Waterrat]

Thanks Jamie.
I wasn't referring so much to the decay / freshness / freezing / defrosting effect, I was more concerned about the tissue composition. Whilst the defrosted carcass may be in a perfect state of "health", freezing causes cells to burst and that changes the fabric of tissues and especially of the soft, internal organs such as liver, kidneys, etc.. I imagine that such "bag of mushed tissues" would go through the digestive canal much faster than something more solid. Is this fast process depriving the snake of a complete uptake of nutrients?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Well, and I qualify this answer because I don't know what the triggers are for the movement of food through a snake's gut, other than temperature which affects all the metabolic processes of a reptile... I'm not sure if the passage of food is a regular thing that happens and progresses on a time-basis alone, or if the sped of food passage is related to what the snake has absorbed during the process, i.e., the food 'wait's' until a process has been completed before moving on when the body signals that not much more can be done with it in that part of the body. It would have to work that way for tough things like bandicoots - their skin is very thick by rodent standards (probably by a factor of 8-10), so it wouldn't move on until it had reached a certain stage of breakdown and absorption, or it would end up in the intestine before the stomach had done its job...

Make sense?

J

 

[Waterrat]

It does make sense. I guess my curiosity was driven by casual observations that my snakes defaecate roughly 2 days earlier (and it's messy) after eating defrosted food as opposed to when fed freshly killed rats. Admittedly, I haven't paid much attention to the temps.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

That, and also any change from a routine diet can cause these sorts of things - same with dogs & people... put a dog normally fed dry or fresh food, on canned food and you can have messy poos for a few days, but they go back to the usual routine once the system accommodates the change.

J

 

[russellman]

i use just hot tap water never had a problem

Ive used the same for ages and never had an issue