Is it cruel to keep a snake in a 4’x2’x2’ box?

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from my personal observations i do believe snakes enjoy a range of different things, whenever it starts to rain, they all come out of their hides and lie in the rain, just like they come out when the sun starts hitting their branches. (obviously the sun fills their heat requirement, but the rain i believe they just like, they could always soak in their water bowls if being wet was a 'need'.)

the diamonds go pink with excitement when they eat, they also get a slight pink tinge when they go and lie in the rain, Bella gets a slight pink tinge when the sun hits her fave spot. the other species dont seem to get a colour change thing going, but they react the exact same way.

tehy also understand alot more than we give them credit for, on feeding day i bring the snakes in and feed them in 3 groups, and they know exactly whats happening, those that are in hard to reach places get left and within 15 mins of their aviary mates being taken in they've moved to an easy access spot and dont cling to the branch, or theyre waiting by the door of their section. even the jungles let me pick them up without going tense of striking.

snakes seem to accept being in a box better than lizards do, depending on box size and setup vs snake size and species, its probably not exactly cruel, but also not a quality life.
for me its a personal perference to give them what i consider a quality life, i feel like prison guard walking into my snake room when theyre in their indoor cages, theyre happy for 3 days while digesting but after that they want to go back outside.

before i had the aviaries they appeared to be happy in their fancy large well deccorated boxes, i guess if they dont know any different they cant miss it.

One diamond i have seemed pretty floppy/weak housed indoors since he never moved in his indoor cage, since being outside and having loads of stuff to climb and getting exercise hes no longer floppy, so i believe theres also health benefits in having happy active snakes..
 
You want to remove as much bias as possible and from what I have read this book is full of bias and little to no reference on reptiles so its irrelevant. Thats what I am getting at.
Fair enough, your choice to make a judgement from one reviewer who fits in with your views and another (me) who does not.

I will disagree with you in regard to the book being full of bias, and I have actually read the whole book. I will also say there is a lot of referance to reptiles throughout the book inregards to sex, feeding, touch etc. There is also mention of 'lower order' animals throughout the book as well as higher order.
 
So he isn't allowed to "make judgements from one reviewer who fits (his) views" but you're allowed to make judgements from one author that fits yours?
 
One diamond i have seemed pretty floppy/weak housed indoors since he never moved in his indoor cage, since being outside and having loads of stuff to climb and getting exercise hes no longer floppy, so i believe theres also health benefits in having happy active snakes..
Feeling good is a powerful motivator that steers animals towards behaviours that keep them alive and help them reproduce. Contrary to popular myth, life in the world is not relentlessly harsh; survival and pleasure are mutually compatible.

So he isn't allowed to "make judgements from one reviewer who fits (his) views" but you're allowed to make judgements from one author that fits yours?
If you read closer I do say "Fair enough....."
Read before you argue.
 
Thanks for the condescension but I did read it. To me it read like "fair enough BUT you're agreeing with the reviewer whose views don't fit with mine or the authors which makes you wrong". Maybe I just misinterpreted and if I did I apologise.
Talking about the Diamond Chris, that sounds like DPS which seems to occur mainly in Diamonds that are housed indoors rather than aviaries (I admit I'm not that well informed on the subject though). So does that mean DPS could actually just be caused by depressed snakes?
 
Reptilian psychology LOL. How do you diagnose a depressed snake? Lethargic, not very active. slow mover? Every GTP must be terribly depressed. :D
 
Reptilian psychology LOL. How do you diagnose a depressed snake? Lethargic, not very active. slow mover? Every GTP must be terribly depressed. :D

Does it need qualitative (or quantitative) diagnoses?

Depression can rear its ugly head in many forms. However, I assume prozac for snakes is a long way off yet....
 
I think viagra for snakes will arrive before prosak lol
 
Fair enough, your choice to make a judgement from one reviewer who fits in with your views and another (me) who does not.

I will disagree with you in regard to the book being full of bias, and I have actually read the whole book. I will also say there is a lot of referance to reptiles throughout the book inregards to sex, feeding, touch etc. There is also mention of 'lower order' animals throughout the book as well as higher order.

I am fairly certain that I don't have a view on the matter as I said I am a frog keeper. All of my frogs have loads of room and other things that they don't need but I like them to have.
All I was saying is that the only evidence you have produced on the matter seems to come from a biased book. Whereas everyone else is coming from personal experience and some of them have been keeping reptiles for longer than I have been alive. So I would say their argument is more valid.
 
i find this thread quite funny. The OP asks a question in the thread title but answers it himself and no-one else can have their own opinion that is different to his
 
I take it your one of those people who has been abducted by aliens? Reps are happy when they are warm, fed, or sleeping. I gave my Lacie a new footy the other day, and he totally ignored it. What a waste of money! I'll try a G.I Joe next.
Dont do that i just watched a video where the lacie swallowed the doll....that's not yours is it?
 
i find this thread quite funny. The OP asks a question in the thread title but answers it himself and no-one else can have their own opinion that is different to his

I am asking other peoples opinion so that we can discuss it.

That in the most part is what we have been doing.

I started with an opinion on the subject matter and I still hold that opinion. Others as expressed have their own opinion, some similar to mine and some different to mine. And that is fair enough we are all entitled to an opinion (maybe not for the animals concerned though...). But that does not mean I/we cannot argue our points...otherwise why have a forum in the first place?To learn nothing? Mmmm…

Important matters such as this need to be discussed by people who keep animals, to raise the awareness of animal care and wellbeing. Its such a shame that so many people still think animals are nonfeeling instinctual only automatic robots, when its the animals that suffer...

I ponder: what surprises me about this society westerners live in, is that people must PROVE that animals do have feelings and emotions and yes even thoughts,when in reality it could be totally the other way around...we could all accept this to be so as some of the cultures in the past and yes even today still have. Traditional American Indians accept that animals have souls, in Mahayana Buddhism animals must be treated with compassion and love and must never be killed, injured or enslaved. But no, we are in a society that killing of animals is an everyday occurrence, where Animal Circus's are deemed by most as cruel, yet Beef Feedlots and Chicken eggs from caged animals with an A4 size of space to move in is deemed ok by consumers purchasing the 'products'. Where animals of a 'higher' order than reptiles are killed every minute to satisfy the taste of their flesh on its citizens tongues. It’s a strange, strange world we live in.
 
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Ive had similar feelings and have changed my practices providing more natural substrates, hides etc. I have a friend who keeps rats and i collect the droppings every now and then and place them in my snakes enclosures. you notice them catch the scent soon after and off they go looking for dinner. I also place sheds from other snakes, etc.
I know a lot will believe the potential of contamination however I feel these stimuli encourage natural hunting behaviors and social benefits regarding the scent of other snakes.

i would not be keeping these animals if i believed i was doing something cruel. i feel all my animals have a great quality of life. i think its more husbandry practices rather than convenient enclosure size that would determine cruelty.
 
Earthling does that mean you don't own any animals yourself?

No I do not own any animals. I do care though for 5 chooks, 1 rooster and a dog. All animals that I had before I read up on this subject and opened my eyes a bit more.
Its always hard to decide what to do with animals you already have when your views change...Ive decided to look after them best that I can. Dog enjoys roadkill when I get it and the chooks eggs when they lay...getting on.
Im still inclined to get another dog in a few years, however that may change.

If your wondering why is this Earthling on a snake forum....I used to breed and keep snakes and dragons.
Now I just do free relocations of snakes and other herps out here. See some beautiful animals, well the ones that escape humans desire to kill via the shovel.
 
So what do you regard as emotions? Feeling hungry? Hunger, warmth, fight, flight,panic, lust,play are feelings and not emotions in my opinion. Emotions are things like love (not to confuse with lust), compassion, mercy, mourning etc. The difference between an emotion and a feeling being a feeling is an expected result from given stimuli generally trigured by hormones released by the body. Feelings are responses designed to keep us safe and well. Where an emotion is not logical, and is not associated with hormones. There is no scientific explanation for them and no real use for them from a survival point of view. Yet they are our most distinguishing attribute and what makes us human. It's interesting that psychotic serial killers lack what i refer to as emotions, but they do have feelings.....
 
More and more evidence is coming forth that all vertebrates not only have feelings such as fear and pain, but also ‘positive’ feelings such as joy and pleasure. These pleasurable feelings point animals to behaviour thati s (mostly) good for them.

Homo sapiens are members of the subphylum called vertebrates.

The commonalities that all vertebrates including Homo sapiens have include: a nervous system (including the brain), a back bone, a digestive process, a respiratory system, a heart, blood and sexual organs. We also generally have similar responses to certain stimuli (hot/cold, punctures through skin, hunger, thirst). We also share the trait of having chemicals such as endorphins being released under certain conditions (during sex, pleasure, joy).

Now it is not hard to infer that as most of the Homo sapien species have certain physical and emotional reactions under certain stimuli, that other vertebrates that have similar physical reactions under certain stimuli also have similar emotional reactions, especially when we understand the physical and chemical similiarities between vertebrates. In the past this‘belief’ was called anthropomorphism, however, today science is understanding that we cannot hide behind this ‘human shield’ of superiority if we want to look at things truly scientifically. After all, the complexity/depth of feelings you as an individual feel are different to the feelings as I as an individual feel; however, you can get to an understanding of my emotional pain/joy from my external emotional reactions to stimuli, same as any other species.

Truth be told, having feelings is a wonderful way to ‘get’animals to do what is best for them. Otherwise why else would we have sex if not for pleasure? Or why would we fill that gnawing pit in our stomach? Or drink to quench a thirst? Or lay in the sun on a beautiful spring day? All feelings, that through natural selection, form part of the behaviour of who we and they are.

In a snakes case in the wild, some positive emotions could be the excitement of hunting, the thrill of the chase, enjoyment of the sun on its back, pleasure in moving/exploring new environments, feeling of bark, sticks, sand and perhaps moving water over its scales. Also, the sexual lust and desire of seeking a mate, and then the ecstasy of having sex with its mate. The feeling of being free to move wherever you want, without being trapped in a box. Joy in discovering a new hide. Joy in discovering and tasting and smelling a new food. The feeling of a warm breeze on its body.

Having said that, just as individual homo sapiens have different personal experiences when subject to different stimuli, the same can be said of other species and within a species. How many of you have snakes that will eat anything, whilst other snakes will only eat rats/mice from a certain supplier? Is it because the snake knows the other food is ‘unhealthy’ or is it because it doesn’t like the taste or the smell?

So…back to my original question. Is it cruel to keep a snake in a 4’x2’x2’ sterile box?

After considering the above I would have to say yes, it is cruel to keep a snake in a 4’x2’x2’ sterile box.

What do you say after reading the above?

where did u cut and paste this from?
 
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