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You have my idealogy all mixed up. Here is my idealogy. There are people in other parts of the world that appreciate your wildlife and will never get the opportunity to travel to Australia and see Australian wildlife in its natural environment. A plane ticket to Australia is in the thousands of dollars. Those people can make a positive contribution to the future of these species if only they are educated about them. The export of them can help educate people and possibly want to contribute to the future well being of these species. I have only ever seen one Inland Taipan in a zoo, and I’ve been to a lot of zoos and seen the back rooms in the reptile buildings. The Inland Taipan is the most venomous land animal in the world. That species should be able to be viewed and studied more by the public. That is a conservation tool. At the same time, it can help the Australian economy. I'm not saying that Australia has a bad economy like the United States, but you can never have too much money and reptile export would contribute to Australia's economy, probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but I will use bearded dragons as an example. They will probably never go extinct. Why? Part is due in fact that there are thousands, if not millions, of them bred in captivity, and a lot, if not the majority, are bred in the United States. And get this, the first breeding stock was probably smuggled!

Yes, collette's black snake and red bellied black snake bites require the use of black snake antivenin and taipan bites require the use of taipan antivenin made by the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories (CSL). We have that antivenin in the United States. Antivenin can be exported from Australia and imported into the United States. What you may not understand is that a couple of Yank and European hobbyists breeding them in cages is contributing to the conservation of those species whether you realize it or not. If Blacks around Sydney would number in the hundreds of thousands, than what damage would export do. If there was a quota system put on the number of snakes legally allowed to be exported, whether they were wild caught or captive born, than what difference would it make?

Conservation comes from the word conserve which means to keep in safety and protect from harm, decay, loss, or destruction. How isn't breeding reptiles in captivity, keeping in safety and protecting from harm, decay, loss, or destruction? How about that new taipan species, Oxyuranus temporalis. There have only been five specimens discovered and recorded of that species. Two of those five were sent to a zoo in Australia. Gee, I wonder why? Venom research and you guessed it, CAPTIVE BREEDING/STUDY! Do you think the zoo has no conservation reasons behind taking 2/5 of the known wild population of that species and bringing them into captivity?

There might even be more Central Ranges Taipans (Oxyuranus temporalis) bred in the United States since 2009, than there have been wild specimens discovered in Australia, but you will never know :)
 
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Missing taipan n Sweden 'Missing snake' note rattles Malmö residents - The Local

Still convinced people can look after their black market, expensive animals???

the paper also says "it could also be a joke," an official with Malmö's office of environmental affairs told the local Sydsvenskan newspaper.

Jonas Wahlström from the Skansen animal park in Stockholm also suspects the note about the missing Taipan is a "sick joke".

i wouldn't rely on this for your argument. and besides, where do you get 'black market' from?
 
Being a fan of Morelia, i say No to exporting from Aus, we have Everything apart from Oenpellis here , and i am sure once they are bred more regularly in Aus, One will miraculously appear in Europe :eek:(.


However Legal exports would only increase Illegal exports ( think about it ) and that can only be bad for the reptile itself.

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but is anyone breeding spotteds this season ?

Brilliant !!!!!


I am looking for perthensis?
 
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You are persistent - that's for sure...

A ticket from somewhere to Australia = $thousands

A snake from Australia to somewhere = $thousands

I can't quite see the financial hardship in this comment.

Education - those that want a decent education can get this from many localities - especially of course here. I won't go into to many details as I am an educator myself. But education of course is the most important conservation tool of them all - and conservation... to conserve... Is also in the appropriate HABITAT! Not in a cage, not in a random person's 'collection'.

The one argument I can't stand is - there's plenty of em' let's take some!

You do understand that this is a very backwards thinking - in fact so far so that you may as well be using ground tiger bone to get better in bed.

There are probably more than hundred's of thousands of RBBS in the Sydney area... There's also 3 million people... We should relocate most of them and allow the RBBS back their original land!

The new thinking of conservation is setting up conservation parks - allowing native flora and fauna protection from introduced pests, hunting and poaching. You might see that as backwards - going all the way back to when animals ruled the land....

So if it is education you're looking up - then start with National Parks...

Case closed... Your ideas and ideology is not welcome in my books.

the paper also says "it could also be a joke," an official with Malmö's office of environmental affairs told the local Sydsvenskan newspaper.

Jonas Wahlström from the Skansen animal park in Stockholm also suspects the note about the missing Taipan is a "sick joke".

i wouldn't rely on this for your argument. and besides, where do you get 'black market' from?

I agree - it could have been a joke... However, the latter comment - I can't answer... if I knew I'd be onto the Police and relevant authorities immediately because poaching is one of the sickest forms of theft in the world! But, I could imagine it is possible.
 
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You have my idealogy all mixed up. Here is my idealogy. There are people in other parts of the world that appreciate your wildlife and will never get the opportunity to travel to Australia and see Australian wildlife in its natural environment. A plane ticket to Australia is in the thousands of dollars. Those people can make a positive contribution to the future of these species if only they are educated about them. The export of them can help educate people and possibly want to contribute to the future well being of these species. I have only ever seen one Inland Taipan in a zoo, and I’ve been to a lot of zoos and seen the back rooms in the reptile buildings. The Inland Taipan is the most venomous land animal in the world. That species should be able to be viewed and studied more by the public. That is a conservation tool. At the same time, it can help the Australian economy. I'm not saying that Australia has a bad economy like the United States, but you can never have too much money and reptile export would contribute to Australia's economy, probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Wow hundreds of thousands?? That might buy a few roundabouts. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but I will use bearded dragons as an example. They will probably never go extinct. Why? Part is due in fact that there are thousands, if not millions, of them bred in captivity, and a lot, if not the majority, are bred in the United States. And get this, the first breeding stock was probably smuggled! It is a very bad example, the fact that beardies will not go extinct has absolutely nothing to do with how many high coloured morph xs are bred in the USA.

Yes, collette's black snake and red bellied black snake bites require the use of black snake antivenin and taipan bites require the use of taipan antivenin made by the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories (CSL). We have that antivenin in the United States. Antivenin can be exported from Australia and imported into the United States. Yes I'm sure you they will be sent straight over if you get bitten :). What you may not understand is that a couple of Yank and European hobbyists breeding them in cages is contributing to the conservation of those species whether you realize it or not. That is not conservation at all, they will never ever, even be considered for re-release. If Blacks around Sydney would number in the hundreds of thousands, than what damage would export do. If there was a quota system put on the number of snakes legally allowed to be exported, whether they were wild caught or captive born, than what difference would it make? Look up what you did to the carrier pigeon.....

Conservation comes from the word conserve which means to keep in safety and protect from harm, decay, loss, or destruction. How isn't breeding reptiles in captivity, keeping in safety and protecting from harm, decay, loss, or destruction? Because you are removing them from the wild and destroying there habitat in the proces??? If you think most ven exports would come from captive bred stocks you are a fool. How about that new taipan species, Oxyuranus temporalis. There have only been five specimens discovered and recorded of that species. Two of those five were sent to a zoo in Australia. Gee, I wonder why? Venom research and you guessed it, CAPTIVE BREEDING/STUDY! Do you think the zoo has no conservation reasons behind taking 2/5 of the known wild population of that species and bringing them into captivity? I think a zoo has slightly more credibility and possibility for research then some American who must have the next in thing at whatever cost. I'm not saying hobbyists don't contribute, but there is no need to export.

There might even be more Central Ranges Taipans (Oxyuranus temporalis) bred in the United States since 2009, than there have been wild specimens discovered in Australia, but you will never know :)

....
 
I was talking about the education of the general public, not people that want to smuggle reptiles out of the country to sell so yes a vacation to Australia would be very expensive. Most people can't just get up and go to Australia to go wildlife watching let alone spend the money on a plane ticket, rental car, food, hotel, etc. Your average person in another country can't just go to any ole' zoo or wildlife park and see a taipan or any other Australia elapid. It's very rare. What I was getting at was that if more of them were exported here, more people would be educated about them and be able to appreciate them if they were displayed more. You say that conservation is in natural HABITAT. So what happens when there is no more habitat? Does conservation end once there is no habitat left? No, it continues in breeding programs. My defense to exporting reptiles for captive breeding purposes and continuing a life form is completely different than killing tigers to use its body parts for reasons that are completely bogus. How is bringing a small percentage of a strong species' wild population into captivity backwards thinking? I am beginning to realize how many animal rights nuts there are on this forum. You seem pro-animal, not pro-human with comments like "...when animals ruled the land". A National Park is only one very small part of education about animals. I'd have to say that they have more hikers, campers, boaters, etc. that they make money on than educating them about animals. The conservation of the animals in the park is a lot lower on their list of priorities than you think. Live about 45 minutes from one and have been there many times. I regularly communicate with Australian reptile educators and none of them work for a National Park. That is for the government to run, not a private individual. The last time I learned something about a reptile at a National Park was...never. For you to think that exporting some reptiles is as detrimental to Australia as you are making it, is absolutely insane.
 
No point in breeding animal to observe their natural behaviour if they are not in a natural habitat.
If the natural habitat is gone so are the animals in the rawest sense, even if we do breed them
 
You have my idealogy all mixed up. Here is my idealogy. There are people in other parts of the world that appreciate your wildlife and will never get the opportunity to travel to Australia and see Australian wildlife in its natural environment. A plane ticket to Australia is in the thousands of dollars.

A New native stock from Australia will cost $5K, for a taipan over there... it's a long stay here in Australia... Void argument or is it that you don't get to keep Australia as a pet but you will a Taipan and make your money back from the offspring.. Australian Ecomony please.... pull the other one mate... If you get the taipan there's no need for you to come back here and keep stimulating our economy rather your pockets from the breeding. Do you think we can't see through your thin arguments...

Those people can make a positive contribution to the future of these species if only they are educated about them.

Yes.. by us using YOUR tourism dollars... the more we conserve them in the wild the more you will come back. How's that for a conservation plan.. Ecotourism vs Pet trade mate it's simple... Knda turns your arguments into a joke doesn't it

The export of them can help educate people and possibly want to contribute to the future well being of these species. I have only ever seen one Inland Taipan in a zoo, and I’ve been to a lot of zoos and seen the back rooms in the reptile buildings.

What makes you think you can just pop down the road and see one here... very little knowledge of these animals and their environment on your part. Unless you want to double your expenditure here you ain't seeing an Inland taipan in the wild. You will be veiwing them the same as you would over there. IN A ZOO. Conservation again we are better off conserving them here with you guessed it YOUR tourism dollars lol.

The Inland Taipan is the most venomous land animal in the world. That species should be able to be viewed and studied more by the public. That is a conservation tool. At the same time, it can help the Australian economy. I'm not saying that Australia has a bad economy like the United States, but you can never have too much money and reptile export would contribute to Australia's economy, probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but I will use bearded dragons as an example.
They will probably never go extinct. Why? Part is due in fact that there are thousands, if not millions, of them bred in captivity, and a lot, if not the majority, are bred in the United States. And get this, the first breeding stock was probably smuggled!




Yes, collette's black snake and red bellied black snake bites require the use of black snake antivenin and taipan bites require the use of taipan antivenin made by the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories (CSL). We have that antivenin in the United States. Antivenin can be exported from Australia and imported into the United States. What you may not understand is that a couple of Yank and European hobbyists breeding them in cages is contributing to the conservation of those species whether you realize it or not. If Blacks around Sydney would number in the hundreds of thousands, than what damage would export do. If there was a quota system put on the number of snakes legally allowed to be exported, whether they were wild caught or captive born, than what difference would it make?

Conservation comes from the word conserve which means to keep in safety and protect from harm, decay, loss, or destruction. How isn't breeding reptiles in captivity, keeping in safety and protecting from harm, decay, loss, or destruction? How about that new taipan species, Oxyuranus temporalis. There have only been five specimens discovered and recorded of that species. Two of those five were sent to a zoo in Australia. Gee, I wonder why? Venom research and you guessed it, CAPTIVE BREEDING/STUDY! Do you think the zoo has no conservation reasons behind taking 2/5 of the known wild population of that species and bringing them into captivity?

Do you seriously understand conservation... CONSERVATION is not just keeping a species alive.. It's ultimate goal is to re-introduce it to it's natural habitat therefore you need to conserve that as well. Conservation isn't done in a 4 x 2 x 2. That's pet keeping mate. What qualifications DO YOU HAVE to undertake a "conservation project" or for that matter any american with 5K to burn on an Australian species? Do you think you will keep all the progeny to be used for conservation and possibly re-introduction or are you going to line your pockets with them... Conservation please...


There might even be more Central Ranges Taipans (Oxyuranus temporalis) bred in the United States since 2009, than there have been wild specimens discovered in Australia, but you will never know :)

CONSERVATION huh???
 
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"For you to think that exporting some reptiles is as detrimental to Australia as you are making it, is absolutely insane."

So you're suggesting because of conservation practices that restrict the export and import of animals out of and into Australia makes us 'insane'?

I think the cookie is in the other jar somehow....
 
An animal's reproductive biology is going to be the same whether it is in the wild or in captivity. It's not like snakes are going to switch it up a bit for some new romantic fire once they are placed into an enclosure. If the habitat is gone and the animals have been removed from their habitat for breeding than we as humans can continue their species. A piece of land can be purchased for the regrowth of a habitat and the animals released. It has been done before.

Who said anything about new native stock from Australia? In order to breed you would need a male and a female. That is $10K. You can't spend $5K and breed with one animal. There would be no tourism dollars because a lot of people can't afford a vacation to Australia. That is why importing them into the United States from Australia would help educate the people that would otherwise not be able to go to Australia. Are you able to grasp simple concepts? Most venomous snakes wouldn't be in the pet trade. Generally speaking your average person or reptile keeper wouldn't even consider keeping venomou snakes so that turns your argument into a joke. "Tonight on channel 9 news, man gets arrested for selling an Inland Taipan in a pet store" hahahahahaha. Without mentioning any names, I have communicated with people in Australia that keep reptiles in an area where Inland Taipans are relatively common. He catches them near home and breeds them. Whether he "pops down the road", I don't know. But he did say they were fairly common. I do have knowledge, but not experience with Inland Taipans and I have spoken to people who do have experience and they are saying the exact opposite of you. You live in Australia and I'm kind of wondering what experience you have. Seeing them in a zoo is all the more reason to just go to a zoo here and see one. You are apart of conservation if you are re-creating life for a species in a cage whether you want to believe it or not. This website is called "Aussie Reptile Keeper". Sounds to me like it has some people who keep reptiles, in some type of cage, possibly breed them, and probably sell the offspring. Could that be possible? Meanwhile, you are on the same site arguing against that. Are you a hypocrite?
 
An animal's reproductive biology is going to be the same whether it is in the wild or in captivity. It's not like snakes are going to switch it up a bit for some new romantic fire once they are placed into an enclosure. If the habitat is gone and the animals have been removed from their habitat for breeding than we as humans can continue their species. A piece of land can be purchased for the regrowth of a habitat and the animals released. It has been done before.

Yes so why would we buy them back from you rather we would just breed them ourselves. AGAIN what are you qualifications in conservation??? There's a reason why qualified establishments are given permits for exportation and not the 4 x 2 x 2 "wildlife" conservationist.

Who said anything about new native stock from Australia? In order to breed you would need a male and a female. That is $10K. You can't spend $5K and breed with one animal. There would be no tourism dollars because a lot of people can't afford a vacation to Australia.

Can't afford to go to Australia but can afford 10K??? Something wrong with your math skills???

That is why importing them into the United States from Australia would help educate the people that would otherwise not be able to go to Australia. Are you able to grasp simple concepts?

How is seeing them in cages educating them?? Any difference to seeing them in a Zoo? At least if they come here they can see first hand the environment.... oh and the tourism money can go into conservation which you seem to be so concerned about.. Something wrong with you understanding that or do you honestly believe you can re-create a peice of an environment you've never seen first hand in a 4x2x2?

Most venomous snakes wouldn't be in the pet trade. Generally speaking your average person or reptile keeper wouldn't even consider keeping venomou snakes so that turns your argument into a joke. "Tonight on channel 9 news, man gets arrested for selling an Inland Taipan in a pet store" hahahahahaha.

Could not agree more with you that's why we export them to zoo's and not pet owners like you... Hmmmm missed that point did you? Aren't you asking us to lobby the government so they can be imported to the pet trade to help boost our economy? What are you an idiot? You can't even keep track of your own arguments (oh sorry "ideology")?

Without mentioning any names, I have communicated with people in Australia that keep reptiles in an area where Inland Taipans are relatively common. He catches them near home and breeds them. Whether he "pops down the road", I don't know. But he did say they were fairly common. I do have knowledge, but not experience with Inland Taipans and I have spoken to people who do have experience and they are saying the exact opposite of you.

Catches them hey.. hope he has the license to do so, care to provide his name to the respective state government and see what they do to him if he does'nt have the appropriate paper work?

You live in Australia and I'm kind of wondering what experience you have. Seeing them in a zoo is all the more reason to just go to a zoo here and see one.

Fantastic keep it that way...

You are apart of conservation if you are re-creating life for a species in a cage whether you want to believe it or not. This website is called "Aussie Reptile Keeper". Sounds to me like it has some people who keep reptiles, in some type of cage, possibly breed them, and probably sell the offspring. Could that be possible? Meanwhile, you are on the same site arguing against that. Are you a hypocrite?

"Aussie pythons and snakes" mate is the name of the site... not suppliers to the american pet trade.. Pet keeping isn't conservation.

Good luck with your "Conservation" mate. If we need your help will make sure to call you.
 
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Conservation $ from eco-tourism is much greater for both education and financial gain in Australia than allowing people to own the snakes for educating purposes outside of Australia.

The concept is pure and simple and is economics AND conservation all rolled into one.

To make it even more simple for you:

Go to the Australia Zoo website and read about the conservation programs in place to stop people like you removing our wildlife.

One particular case from Australia Zoo - Conservation - Programs

Queensland Womas
1.Critically endangered, if not already extinct, the eastern form of Woma has already succumbed to the devastation of its specific habitat. Australia Zoo hopes to prevent the eastern most form of this snake following in the same footsteps.

2.A Brigalow belt species, the south east Queensland form of Woma, is highly restricted in its natural range. Existing in the most endangered scrub in Australia where past practices of chain pulling, over grazing and too frequent use of fire have decimated habitat and some localized populations have even become extinct.

3.The breeding biology of this Woma group is a critical key in the future of its survival and Australia Zoo is working hard to solve the mystery of what natural triggers exist to prompt breeding behaviour. The zoo will then follow through with a release program onto secure, protected habitat to re-establish populations of this gentle and highly endangered group. To further enhance this program, a continuing education of land holders within this highly fragile region and restoration of already severely damaged areas is also on going.

That is a ZOO idea of conservation.... Pick the ways yours is simalar.
 
Haven't even read most of this, but I bet I haven't missed much. Semantic arguments about what is 'conservation', (the definition of which seems to be changeable at the will of the debater) the relative values of the animals exported vs the cost to the environment if some are taken from the wild etc etc etc...

The truth is that for many, many years, heaps of Oz species have been more readily available, and far cheaper overseas than they are here, even today. Dave Barker was breeding cracker Jungle Pythons in '95 when I visited him in Texas, and selling them for US$200, along with heaps of other Oz species. I paid $1600 a pair for Jungles from SXR only 4 years ago, for animals of similar quality here in Oz. Most of the illegal traffic we will see in coming days (apart from a few target 'icon' species), both into and out of Australia is for the morph market, i.e, has been and always will be artefacts of captive breeding. The arrival of Jags and albino BHPs in this country, and the expected availability of things like Granites and Zebras sometime soon means that the market just waits for things to turn up here a little while after they appear in Europe of the US.

My bet is that there is now only a very limited overseas market for 'locale' reptiles, or those of known provenance, so the impact on wild populations, of allowing the export of reptiles from Australia would be nil on all but a very few icon species. Many of the commentators here are just not familiar with trends elsewhere in the world, and there is a good deal of parochialism in the opinions expressed here.

Jamie
 
Purchasing land for regrowth and then reintroducing species is a last resort and from what I understand, for the most part unsuccessful
 
Purchasing land for regrowth and then reintroducing species is a last resort and from what I understand, for the most part unsuccessful

I'm not sure I agree with that.

For example, the takahe ( http://www.doc.govt.nz/upload/documents/science-and-technical/dsis151.pdf ) although not as fast as hoped - there is a pure example of purchased (government) land then introducing a species that is endangered and breeding them.

The net is littered with prime examples of conservation success stories - however, there are some conservation horror stories too I am sure.
 
...You are apart of conservation if you are re-creating life for a species in a cage whether you want to believe it or not. This website is called "Aussie Reptile Keeper". Sounds to me like it has some people who keep reptiles, in some type of cage, possibly breed them, and probably sell the offspring. Could that be possible? Meanwhile, you are on the same site arguing against that. Are you a hypocrite?
Sounds to me like someone is getting their forums mixed up. This website is called "Aussie Pythons and Snakes". :?
"Aussie Reptile Keeper" is another Aussie reptile forum. You have the same discussion going on over there I see.
Surely you've had enough by now! :eek:
 
I never said Australians would buy them back from Americans because they wouldnt. I dont have any qualifications to be a conservationist and never claimed to have any. You are confusing two groups of people I was talking about. You were implying that I said a reptile keeper wouldnt be able to afford a trip to Oz but could afford $10K worth of snakes. You confused two different issues that I was talking about. Or you tried to mix them together to make a point non related to anything this thread is about. How is seeing them in a cage NOT educating people about them? If they read a simple sign with the name Inland Taipan next to the cage, that is the purest form of education. Most signs have more info on them than just a name though. Again, the export zoo thing is not true. I know someone who has imported reptiles from Australia who isn't associated with any zoo. There is a loop hole in every system! Yes he catches them, breeds them, and probably sells them. No I will not give any names on a public forum. He is a realist who doesn't take your bullshit rules and regulations for an answer.

Oh sorry you're right, it's called Aussie Pythons and Snakes with "how do i sell my snakes", "repcubtor", and
"Southern Cross Reptiles-Selective breeding for 20 yrs and constantly selecting the best of the best to provide you the highest quality captive bred stock" advertisement across on the front page. Some conservation site this is, huh? Give me a break! Who started the Australia Zoo? Let me guess...hmm. Bob Irwin and Steve Irwin. They used to keep wall to wall snakes in their living room for no other reason than they just liked them. That's pet keeping at its best. And there is nothing wrong with that!

Jamie you are right about that, but there would still be people that would buy reptiles from Australia even if they were expensive. It would be impossible for the market to ignore and withhold from buying reptiles from Australia. We couldn't keep our hands out of the cookie jar. We can't even do it now, thats why there are so many Australian reptiles here now.
 
I'm not sure I agree with that.

For example, the takahe ( http://www.doc.govt.nz/upload/documents/science-and-technical/dsis151.pdf ) although not as fast as hoped - there is a pure example of purchased (government) land then introducing a species that is endangered and breeding them.

The net is littered with prime examples of conservation success stories - however, there are some conservation horror stories too I am sure.

Can't open your link sorry.

I'm sure there are success stories, however I think it would depend an awfull lot on how badly degraded the area is and the type of animal being reintroduced. regardless of the successes using it as a means to justify a potentialy negative environmental practice is ludicruos. PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN THE CURE.

The fact the net is littered with success stories only highlights how often we stufed up in the first place

If there is a loophole and you know this person done it legally (which I doubt) then why are you posting this and not exploiting the loophole for your own puposes. I would love some more info on how this person legaly obtained an Inland Taipan
 
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