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longqi

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Actually it didnt because I dont own any
I think they can be quite beautiful but my snakes get used in demonstrations and a twitch might mean many different things so I have avoided using them

But what will be the aftermath when this happens??
Imagine if a gravid jungle Jag escaped in Far North Qld
Or a diamond Jag in the Mid North coast of NSW

In the USA they are virtually giving up and simply saying now 'All jags have problems to one extent or another'
England and Europe are more optimistic that eventually it may weaken

Here in Australia some breeders are telling customers 'Yes This one is showing signs of problems"
Which is really good but the snake still gets purchased because it is gorgeous

So we can make an educated guess that one day that 'Help My Jag Escaped" will be posted on here because every other type of snake has escaped at one time or another

I am no geneticist or zoologist or anything else like that
So all I can do is guess
If this gene keeps appearing no matter what other morelia it breeds with it follows that once into the wild stock it could mean the gradual extinction of all native morelia

The reason I say this is a very simple one
On every site that discusses Jags the main time they show the neuro problems is when getting ready to feed or when excited/stressed
How could a wild snake successfully hunt if it trembles and shakes just as it tries to ambush something??
Or does that mean that Jags couldnt successfully exist in the wild here so no need to worry?

We are in a very different position to anywhere else
If 1000 jags escaped in the USA or Europe who cares
They can zero effect on their native morelias because they have none
Here it might be a very different story

Have a think about this and if you answer try not to get into a Jag bashing or supporting role without giving at least a slightly logical answer

Any experts who can shoot big holes in this theory are more than welcome to do so
It would let me relax a bit instead of thinking worst scenario
 
I am not going to get involved with this discussion again. There are certain evolutionary processes involved in a situation like this that zoologists and geneticists would be well aware of. I have taken the liberty to find some information on the Internet that would enlighten the majority of you about what exactly happens to a wild population if new alleles are introduced to it. You can read the below to familiarise yourselves with some of the correct terminology that zoologist and geneticists use. I would be very surprised to see if anybody posting in this thread actually took the time to read it. Here is the link to the webpage

Population Genetics - Biology Encyclopedia - body, examples, human, process, different, chromosomes, DNA, blood

And a few more links:

Basics of population genetics
Introduction to Evolutionary Biology


The field of population genetics examines the amount of genetic variation within populations and the processes that influence this variation. A population is defined as a group of interbreeding individuals that exist together at the same time. Genetic variation refers to the degree of difference found among individuals, for instance in height, coat color, or other less observable traits. The particular set of genes carried by an individual is known as his or her genotype, while all the genes in a population together comprise the "gene pool."

Foundations

The foundation for population genetics was laid in 1908, when Godfrey Hardy and Wilhelm Weinberg independently published what is now known as the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. The "equilibrium" is a simple prediction of genotype frequencies in any given generation, and the observation that the genotype frequencies are expected to remain constant from generation to generation as long as several simple assumptions are met. This description of stasis provides a counterpoint to studies of how populations change over time.

The 1920s and 1930s witnessed the real development of population genetics, with important contributions by Ronald Fisher, Sewall Wright, and John B. S. Haldane. They, with many others, clearly established the basic processes which caused populations to change over time: selection, genetic drift, migration, and mutation. The change in the genetic makeup of a population over time, usually measured in terms of allele frequencies, is equivalent to evolutionary change. For this reason, population genetics provides the groundwork for scientists' understanding of evolution, in particular microevolution, or changes within one or several populations over a limited time span.

The questions addressed by population genetics are quite varied, but many fall within several broad categories. How much genetic variation is found in populations, and what processes govern this? How will a population change over time, and can a stable endpoint be determined? How much and why do populations of the same species differ? The answer is always cast in terms of selection, drift, mutation, migration, and the complex interplay among them. Of the four, selection and genetic drift are usually given credit as the major forces.

Selection

Simply put, selection occurs when some genotypes in the population are on average more successful in reproduction. These genotypes may survive better, produce more offspring, or be more successful in attracting mates; the alleles responsible for these traits are then passed on to offspring. There is broad theoretical consensus and abundant empirical data to suggest that selection can change populations radically and quickly. If one genetic variant, or allele, increases survivorship or fertility, selection will increase the frequency of the favored allele, and concurrently eliminate other alleles. This type of selection, called directional selection, decreases the amount of genetic variation in populations.

Alternatively, an individual carrying two different alleles for the same gene (a heterozygote) may have advantages, as exemplified by the well-known example of the sickle-cell allele in Africa, in which heterozygotes are more resistant to malaria. In this case, called overdominant selection, genetic variation is preserved in the population. Although a number of similar examples are known, directional selection is much more common than overdominant selection; this implies that the common action of selection is to decrease genetic variation within populations. It is equally clear that if different (initally similar) populations occupy different habitats, selection can create differences among populations by favoring different alleles in different areas.

Genetic Drift

Often overlooked by the layperson, genetic drift is given a place of importance in population genetics. While some analyses of genetic drift quickly become complicated, the basic process of drift is simple and involves random


Cheetahs, which have very little genetic variation, are presumed to have gone through several genetic bottlenecks.
changes in allele frequency. In sexual species, the frequency of alleles contained in the progeny may not perfectly match the frequency of the alleles contained in the parents. As an analogy, consider flipping a coin twenty times. Although one might expect ten heads and ten tails, the actual outcome may be slightly different; in this example, the outcome (progeny) does not perfectly represent the relative frequency of heads and tails (the parents).
What does this mean for populations? Start by considering neutral alleles, which have no impact on survival or reproduction. (An example is the presence or absence of a widow's peak hairline.) The frequency of a neutral allele may shift slightly between generations, sometimes increasing and sometimes decreasing. What outcomes are expected from this process? Suppose that a particular allele shifts frequency at random for a number of generations, eventually becoming very rare, with perhaps only one copy in the population. If the individual carrying this allele does not pass it on to any offspring or fails to have any offspring, the allele will be lost to the population. Once lost, the allele is gone from the population forever. In this light, drift causes the loss of genetic variation over time. All populations are subject to this process, with smaller populations more strongly affected than larger ones.

Perhaps better known than the pervasive, general effects of genetic drift are special examples of drift associated with unusually small populations. Genetic bottlenecks occur when a small number of individuals from a much larger population are the sole contributors to future generations; this occurs when a catastrophe kills most of the population, or when a few individuals start a new population in different area. Genetic bottlenecks reduce the genetic variation in the new or subsequent population relative to the old. Cheetahs, which have very little genetic variation, are presumed to have gone through several genetic bottlenecks. Occasionally, these new populations may have particular alleles that are much more common than in the original population, by chance alone. This is usually called the founder effect.

Migration and Mutation

Migration may also be important in shaping the genetic variation within populations and the differences among them. To geneticists, the word "migration" is synonymous with the term "gene flow." Immigration may change allele frequencies within a population if the immigrants differ genetically. The general effect of gene flow among populations is to make all of the populations of a species more similar. It can also restore alleles lost through genetic drift, or introduce new alleles formed by mutation in another population. Migration is often seen as the "glue" that binds the subpopulation of a species together. Emigration is not expected to change populations unless the migrants are genetically different from those that remain; this is rarely observed, so emigration is often ignored.

The last important process is mutation. Mutation is now understood in great detail at the molecular level, and consists of any change in the deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) sequence of an organism. These mutations range from single base substitutions to the deletion or addition of tens or hundreds of bases to the duplication or reorganization of entire chromosomes . Mutation is most important as the sole source of all new genetic variation, which can then be spread from the population of origin by migration. This importance should not be undervalued, although the impact of mutation on most populations is negligible at any given time. This is because mutation rates are typically very low.

Questions and Contributions

The real challenge of population genetics has been in understanding how the four processes work together to produce the observable patterns. For instance, genetic drift eliminates variation from populations, as do the most common modes of natural selection. How then can the abundance of genetic variation in the world be explained?

This question has many complicated answers, but some cases, such as the observation of deleterious alleles in humans (for example, alleles for phenylketonuria, a genetic disease), might be explained in terms of mutation and selection. Mutation adds these alleles to a population, and selection removes them; although the rate of mutation is likely to be nearly constant, the rate at which selection removes them increases as the abundance of the allele increases. This is certainly true for recessive alleles, which are only expressed when an individual has two copies. With only one, the allele remains unexpressed and therefore not selected. At some point, predictable from the mutation rate and physical consequences of the disease, the two opposing forces balance, producing the stable persistence of the disease allele at low frequency.

As a discipline, population genetics has contributed greatly to scientists' understanding of many disparate topics, including the development of resistance of insects to insecticides and of pathogenic bacteria to antibiotics, an explanation of human genetic variation like the alleles for sickle-cell anemia and blood groups, the evolutionary relationships among species, and many others. Of particular interest is the use of genetic data in conservation biology.

By definition, endangered and threatened species have reduced population sizes, making them subject to the vagaries of genetic drift and also to inbreeding. Inbreeding is mating between genetically related individuals, and often leads to inbreeding depression, a reduction of health, vigor, and fertility. Genetic drift leads to a loss of genetic variation, which limits what selection can do to produce adaptations if the environment changes. Keeping these two issues in mind, greatly reduced populations may be at increasingly greater risk for genetic reasons, leading to further declines.

SEE ALSO C ONSERVATION ; E NDANGERED S PECIES ; E VOLUTION ; E XTINCTION ; H ARDY -W EINBERG E QUILIBRIUM ; N ATURAL S ELECTION ; S EXUAL R EPRODUCTION

Paul R. Cabe

Bibliography

Gillespie, John H. Population Genetics: A Concise Guide. Baltimore, MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998.

Hardy, Godfrey. "Mendelian Proportions in Mixed Populations." Science 28 (1908): 49–50.

Hartl, Daniel. A Primer of Population Genetics. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates, 1999.

Hedrick, Philip W. Genetics of Populations. Boston, MA: Jones and Bartlett, 2000.

Smith, John Maynard. Evolutionary Genetics, 2nd ed. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 1998.
 
I doubt jags would survive in the wild dew to a few factors.

1 . They are a bright colour morph , wild types only survive because of there colours and patterns blending into their habitats etc..
There are good reasons why colour morphs are rare as rocking horse crap in nature IE in the wild.
Thats because they stand out to preditors .

2nd . The neuro issues that can arise from stress in captivity would be minamal when compared to wild enviromental stress triggers.
Jags would be easy picking for preditors .
End of story ......
 
But what will be the aftermath when this happens??
Imagine if a gravid jungle Jag escaped in Far North Qld
Or a diamond Jag in the Mid North coast of NSW

What would happen if a diamond python escaped in Queensland. Or a Darwin carpet in Northern NSW....... or a Murray Darling carpet in NSW.

In the USA they are virtually giving up and simply saying now 'All jags have problems to one extent or another'
England and Europe are more optimistic that eventually it may weaken

Here in Australia some breeders are telling customers 'Yes This one is showing signs of problems"
Which is really good but the snake still gets purchased because it is gorgeous

So we can make an educated guess that one day that 'Help My Jag Escaped" will be posted on here because every other type of snake has escaped at one time or another Correct.... i don't see why a JAG is any different?

I am no geneticist or zoologist or anything else like that
So all I can do is guess
If this gene keeps appearing no matter what other morelia it breeds with it follows that once into the wild stock it could mean the gradual extinction of all native morelia

The reason I say this is a very simple one
On every site that discusses Jags the main time they show the neuro problems is when getting ready to feed or when excited/stressed
How could a wild snake successfully hunt if it trembles and shakes just as it tries to ambush something??
Or does that mean that Jags couldnt successfully exist in the wild here so no need to worry?

I think you have just answered your own question here. If they really are as bad as the JAG haters claim, then there is nothing to worry about as they would not survive. Reading the article posted by Carpetpythons.com.au, the 'Selection' section would apply. The strongest survive.

Have a think about this and if you answer try not to get into a Jag bashing or supporting role without giving at least a slightly logical answer

Any experts who can shoot big holes in this theory are more than welcome to do so
It would let me relax a bit instead of thinking worst scenario
***Disclaimer - I am no expert lol
 
What harm could a genetically defective animal cause to our native animals?


Who cares? do YOU?

Try to think of the positives of what they could do to our eco system, :)

"Natural predators will quickly dispose of them, because of all their unnaturalness"

Our native wildlife is safe from these 'sick' animals, based on this. :)
 
I guess the yellow bumblebee BHP and albino pythons ( some adult )were all destined to be picked off by predators before keepers found them hey ?
What a load of excretement.
 
cant say that im a lover or hater of jags, but i dont see how an escapee or afew escapees will/would take over a wild population of natives
 
Jungle freak
1 ..Some snakes are among the most rightly coloured creatures on Earth and some Tully or Palmerston Jungles etc would match any jag out there for brightness and striping etc so the colour morph would have little impact on survival
2 .. Whether or not these neuro issues arise from the stress of captivity would seem to be a very very debatable point because from anecdotal evidence some hatchlings show symptoms immediately after hatching??
Only breeders can really answer that question and most Jag breeders are not too forth coming about exact clutch sizes and reporting of problems and I cannot blame them in any way for this

Carpet Pythons
Very interesting reading although I must admit most of it is still going straight over my head
The links will take a while to begin to digest as each link adds more questions to this question

But I think I would be correct in saying that a Jag would fit into the Mutation category
If this is the case it appears to be a very tough mutation in that it has continued to occur for at least 5 generations now and does not look as if it affects the reproductive capacity of the reptiles??
Even when put with natural/clean/unaffected morelia this one remains as strong as it has ever been??
So is this neuro problem causing 'gene' a very dominant one??

Australian breeders were very lucky to have somehow hit exactly the right combination again and produce Jags
But we appear to have a similar degree of neuro problems to the overseas varieties and this disproved my theory that that Irian Jayas were the major factor in the whole Jag Neuro problem
I thought that was the cause because although the 'creator' of jags always said his Jags had no I/J in them; the first neuro problems did not get reported until after the Americans/Europeans had introduced the I/Js into the picture after the second generation??

I will keep attempting to do more of an analysis as I read more
Please correct any errors I am making as I am no rocket scientist and have never studied any form of genetics
 
Does it really matter what captive reptile escapes.....

All captive reptiles no matter the Genus, species, morph, defect, disease or genetic make up that manages to escape poses a severe threat in any environment and in any location. All escapees have the potential to cause serious harm to our eco systems.

A jag, albino, spotted python, frog or gecko that has escaped captivity and made it into the bush is as potentially dangerous as any.........

The simple fact is that everything in a keepers power should be done to ensure no captive reptile ever escapes......bottom line
 
longqi: from past jag threads - jags were not produce in australia because we were lucky to hit upon the combination/gene again, a jag was smuggle into australia and bred with local stock (they thought that due to the wide range of genetics available they could breed out the neuro issues, they can't) and the first generation was given the name rpm, but now people are calling them what they are - jags.

if a gravid jag ever escape i will wait 50 years and see what happen, too early to comment.
 
Does it really matter what captive reptile escapes.....

All captive reptiles no matter the Genus, species, morph, defect, disease or genetic make up that manages to escape poses a severe threat in any environment and in any location. All escapees have the potential to cause serious harm to our eco systems.

A jag, albino, spotted python, frog or gecko that has escaped captivity and made it into the bush is as potentially dangerous as any.........

The simple fact is that everything in a keepers power should be done to ensure no captive reptile ever escapes......bottom line

Couldn't agree more. Any animal that escapes into a area were it's not natural found is a potential risk. There are many man made situation were people short sightedly released animal into the wild and we still feel it today. Things such as the cane toad and the rabbit destroyed the environments they were released into and then spread from there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I doubt jags would survive in the wild dew to a few factors.

1 . They are a bright colour morph , wild types only survive because of there colours and patterns blending into their habitats etc..
There are good reasons why colour morphs are rare as rocking horse crap in nature IE in the wild.
Thats because they stand out to preditors .

2nd . The neuro issues that can arise from stress in captivity would be minamal when compared to wild enviromental stress triggers.
Jags would be easy picking for preditors .
End of story ......
so you have never seen a bright coloured jungle in the wild? (do you think this colour only developed in captivity?, and as for being picked off due to its bright colours alot of albinos found in the wild were at least yearlings or older????.
 
Selection is all well and good in the long term. But short term not so much. An adult escapes.... what predators are gonna hurt it? Virtually none. It is male, so can breed with every female it finds during a period injecting her with his hot steamy genetic code :lol:.Natural selection doesn't always apply to the unnatural

And I guess the reasoning why a lost jag is worse than a out of locale morelia is the fact that a morelia would make a hybrid population. The jag would make a hybrid population of retards.
 
I've rarely read such an untested load of theoretical bollocks in my life. Genetically modified animals with significant defects don't survive in the wild - the chance of them breeding and wiping out species in Australia is nonsensical.

Jamie
 
how would a jungle jag, a jungle, a bredli or a darwin escaping, in say melbourne, have any different effect? the jag gene doesn't present any greater threat to biodiversity. if there was a legitimate threat, it would be preferential to keep exotics that wouldn't breed with native species than to keep natives in a different location to where they originated. the notion that a few escapee animals may lead to the demise of a species through breeding bad traits is an uneducated one.

on the basis of the thread opener, if it was ever the case that the jag mutation surfaced in the wild population naturally (as mutations do ) then this would lead to the extinction of all Morelia. the likelihood of the jag gene already having surfaced at least once in the history of australia is high, and the demise of Morelia as a result has not occurred.
 
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so you have never seen a bright coloured jungle in the wild? (do you think this colour only developed in captivity?, and as for being picked off due to its bright colours alot of albinos found in the wild were at least yearlings or older????.


I believe i said colour and neuro issues,
combining these 2 traits in any animal ??????????????
and preditors will have a field day.
 
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Jay
I actually agree with some parts of your answer but would natural selection be enough to get rid of this seemingly very powerful mutation?
That is why I put up both of my thoughts there
If I am incorrect calling it a mutation please correct me as now I am following that line of thought through the links
If say a diamond etc escaped anywhere else it would be assimilated into the gene pool fairly quickly if I read Carpets post correctly

Barramundi and abnormal
While I completely agree that any animal can have devastating results if released very very few could lead to the damage these could cause if this gene/mutation is as strong as it appears to be
Cane toads and rabbits, while having enormous environmental impacts, did not introduce a 'new' gene/mutation

Hnn17
Oh No I never thought any aussie would do such a thing??
[it was a bit tongue in cheek]
The reason I believe it is the Irian Jayas is that I can find no neuro problems reported before they were introduced into the breeding

Wookie
That is exactly what I am trying to decide with everyones input
 
Bollocks indeed. I think a lot of people here are just pulling attention away from other real issues and threats that are occurring to our native wildlife, like loss of habitat, poaching, shovels and feral cats.
Much better then making such a big unneeded argument of theories and non-researched dribble.
 
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