Defective
~ Yoda (2008-2020), you loved me more than life!!
i'd breed her, imagine the sexy hatchies
Isnt she lovely , Isnt she Beautiful :)
- Thread starter Torah
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Torah
Very Well-Known Member
No theyre not milky yet
Yah ? I was just looking at the patternless albino thread , could she just be abit like that ?lol
atothej09
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very nice, proud mum.
her_xr6t
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Well all i have to say is proof is in the pudding so to speak,.. you continued with the advise of the breeder you got her from and its paid off. shes eating on her own now and well how can that be felt sorry for,.. its almost and i say almost cause for a few charddies lol.
you've done a fantastic job and i bet Harper loves you to bits for all the effort you put in helping her along..well done and i would say this should put u up there as being an experiences snake owner..
**rate that Mr Negative**
you've done a fantastic job and i bet Harper loves you to bits for all the effort you put in helping her along..well done and i would say this should put u up there as being an experiences snake owner..
**rate that Mr Negative**
Red-Ink
Very Well-Known Member
Nice snake and well done on getting her feeding.....
Torah
Very Well-Known Member
thanx guyz , she just ate 2 more pinkys.... I am sooo soo proud of her , even rang my mates they werent that excited but I still am 
"jumping round goinh Yay she ate yay she ate " lol
"jumping round goinh Yay she ate yay she ate " lol
KaotikJezta
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I have her sister on hold at the moment, lol. They are all eating now as well so all's good, cant wait.
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
I believe Kyro (and others) had a worthwhile point to make. What was lacking from both sides of the fence was the full perspective of why do what was being suggested or being done.
The term “assist feeding” is not well defined. Many, if not most keepers, use it to include what others call “force feeding”. So it might be involve gently opening the mouth a little, placing an easy to get in food item into the mouth and then releasing the snake. Or it may involve opening the mouth wide and working a prey item into the gullet and massaging it down into the stomach. Or it could involve syringing food or using a pinkie pump to get food into the stomach via an inserted plastic tube.
Lots of the techniques utilised above should not be performed by someone alone or by anyone who has not done it before. Learning these techniques is a bit like learning to drive. You need someone to first demonstrate and explain. Then to watch, instruct and comment while you do it. Supervision should then be provided several times for some.
If you get it wrong, you can cause pain and injury to the snake. I suspect it is this understanding that prompted the comment: “This is exactly why inexperienced keepers shouldn't be buying non feeders, poor snake.” I took the term “inexperienced” to refer to lack of previous experience at “assist feeding” which Torah freely exclaimed.
As it turns out, the technique being used was one of the least intrusive and least likely to cause discomfort or injury. I will assume here, that as the breeder / seller instructed Torah to try this, he either demonstrated the technique or described it.
Genuine non-feeders can be a nightmare. And assist feeding of hatchlings at an early stage is known to contribute to this. Most hatchlings can comfortably go 3 months or more without eating. Those keepers who have had the patience to simply continue offering food have discovered that the hatchlings eventually get hungry and the eating response kicks in. There is also a range of simple techniques and alternative feeding methods that can be tried, many of which are highly successful.
As a generalisation, it is good practice to allow a new acquisition to settle into it new surrounds – which can be hugely different to what they have been used to. The exception would be where the enclosure (viv or click-clack) comes with them. Some snakes take a little longer to settle in and on odd occasions, some snakes seem to settle from Day1. The leave them alone for one week rule is good, sound advice based on the experiences of a multitude of keepers.
I think Harper was definitely the exception to the rule. But that’s a good thing. Given how quickly and readily Harper made the transition to pinkies, I wonder (like Torah) how much time and effort the breeder really did put in to try and get the hatchies feeding.
Sorry about the length of the rant but it always concerns me to see individuals so passionate about this hobby at loggerheads. Especially when it does not have to be that way!!!
A final note. We place a lot of value on experience. Yet it is not really the amount of time in the game that counts. The basic measure of success as a keeper is the sustained health of the animals kept. An additional and more challenging dimension is success in breeding them. It is about accrued knowledge (and hopefully not by trial and error) and understanding. It also about developing observation skills and being able to recognise and distinguish between what is normal in terms of behaviour and appearance and what is abnormal. You could keep reptiles for twenty years and learn very little or you keep them for a year and learn heaps. That word “experience” when used in our hobby means “degree of success at keeping through accrued knowledge, understandings and skills”. Some get experienced a lot faster than others.
Blue
The term “assist feeding” is not well defined. Many, if not most keepers, use it to include what others call “force feeding”. So it might be involve gently opening the mouth a little, placing an easy to get in food item into the mouth and then releasing the snake. Or it may involve opening the mouth wide and working a prey item into the gullet and massaging it down into the stomach. Or it could involve syringing food or using a pinkie pump to get food into the stomach via an inserted plastic tube.
Lots of the techniques utilised above should not be performed by someone alone or by anyone who has not done it before. Learning these techniques is a bit like learning to drive. You need someone to first demonstrate and explain. Then to watch, instruct and comment while you do it. Supervision should then be provided several times for some.
If you get it wrong, you can cause pain and injury to the snake. I suspect it is this understanding that prompted the comment: “This is exactly why inexperienced keepers shouldn't be buying non feeders, poor snake.” I took the term “inexperienced” to refer to lack of previous experience at “assist feeding” which Torah freely exclaimed.
As it turns out, the technique being used was one of the least intrusive and least likely to cause discomfort or injury. I will assume here, that as the breeder / seller instructed Torah to try this, he either demonstrated the technique or described it.
Genuine non-feeders can be a nightmare. And assist feeding of hatchlings at an early stage is known to contribute to this. Most hatchlings can comfortably go 3 months or more without eating. Those keepers who have had the patience to simply continue offering food have discovered that the hatchlings eventually get hungry and the eating response kicks in. There is also a range of simple techniques and alternative feeding methods that can be tried, many of which are highly successful.
As a generalisation, it is good practice to allow a new acquisition to settle into it new surrounds – which can be hugely different to what they have been used to. The exception would be where the enclosure (viv or click-clack) comes with them. Some snakes take a little longer to settle in and on odd occasions, some snakes seem to settle from Day1. The leave them alone for one week rule is good, sound advice based on the experiences of a multitude of keepers.
I think Harper was definitely the exception to the rule. But that’s a good thing. Given how quickly and readily Harper made the transition to pinkies, I wonder (like Torah) how much time and effort the breeder really did put in to try and get the hatchies feeding.
Sorry about the length of the rant but it always concerns me to see individuals so passionate about this hobby at loggerheads. Especially when it does not have to be that way!!!
A final note. We place a lot of value on experience. Yet it is not really the amount of time in the game that counts. The basic measure of success as a keeper is the sustained health of the animals kept. An additional and more challenging dimension is success in breeding them. It is about accrued knowledge (and hopefully not by trial and error) and understanding. It also about developing observation skills and being able to recognise and distinguish between what is normal in terms of behaviour and appearance and what is abnormal. You could keep reptiles for twenty years and learn very little or you keep them for a year and learn heaps. That word “experience” when used in our hobby means “degree of success at keeping through accrued knowledge, understandings and skills”. Some get experienced a lot faster than others.
Blue
KaotikJezta
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All the breeders hatchies are feeding well now, I know this as I am buying one. I don't think it was laziness or skimping on his part as he has given me a month to pay mine off so he is quite willing to maintain the animal at his own expense. I think he was just giving people the option of getting them feeding themselves at a bit smaller cost for the animal. I would not have bought a non-feeder as I would not have felt confident, but some people do and it is their choice ultimately.
Torah
Very Well-Known Member
Yes I agree ^ I dont believe he skimped or was lazy ... And since they are all feeding now they must have just been a little late to start
So kaotikjezta were going to be family lol ... Yay
We will so have to trade pix
and do a family reunion in afew years lol
... And since they are all feeding now they must have just been a little late to start So kaotikjezta were going to be family
lol ... Yay We will so have to trade pix
and do a family reunion in afew years lol
arcy11
Not so new Member
wow very nice
Wallypod
Active Member
nice looking animal
ToadCountry
Not so new Member
Yes I agree ^ I dont believe he skimped or was lazy
So kaotikjezta were going to be family
We will so have to trade pix
and do a family reunion in afew years lol
Count me in too Torah
Though my original snakes from the breeder are two years older.
Sibling rivalry LOL !!
Great essay there Blue - however I think the original angst was generated purely because some people are just real quick to jump in and go on a roll of "negative" without knowing the full story.
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
I am not sure what you mean by "real quick". At what point is someone supposed to know they have the complete information? You go with what you are given.
And if one is not given all of the relevant facts in a given situation it is hardly surprising that an inappropriate response is provided.
I actually don’t like writing “essays” (as you call it). However, it is my personal belief that knowledge without understanding is of limited worth, applicable only with the boundaries of the context provided. Knowledge with understanding, on the other hand, is a much more flexible and powerful tool that, judiciously applied, can be utilised well beyond the initial boundaries. It’s the providing understanding that takes the time – a pain in the bum to write and likewise to read - but hopefully worth the effort. My apology was quite genuine.
Blue.
My comment: “I wonder (like Torah) how much time and effort the breeder really did put in to try and get the hatchies feeding.” Was in relation to Torah’s: ” Thanx but im not really sure what I did , lol I tried everything . She seems to be really settled here ... All I can think is that I just spent abit more time with her than the breeder was able to give ....” and the statement from Kkaotikjezta: “If you read the breeders ad they were not feeding, se was well aware it was assist fed. she was only doing what the breeder was already doing”.
It is a shame no-one answered Cement’s question: “How old is she?” because that is highly relevant to the discussion - at least to that part of the discussion devoted to husbandry.
Blue
If you are still interested I would be happy to post those options (not already mentioned) that I am aware of which can be effective with difficult feeders. I am equally happy to PM them or just leave – up to you.
Please forgive my ignorance but in the midst of all else I neglected to congratulate you on your latest acquisition. An awesome little character by the looks and sounds of it – Yes, she is lovely! Thanks for sharing - the pics, the passion and the progress.
Blue
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ToadCountry
Not so new Member
I wasn't having a go Blue.....just thought it was a good essay.
My statement about jumping to conclusions may well apply to this whole site....and I wasn't having a go - just saying.
Sometimes the rude replies to innocent questions makes me cringe, however this is typically forum-centric (is there such a word?) right across the board as I am a member of a couple of other forums, and find the same thing occurs there.
People are seriously quicker to type cryptic/rude/denigrating responses when at a computer.
If that person was in front of you asking - then of course the response would be different and much kinder in approach.
Just as an aside - the breeder has been around for a VERY long time, keeps an impeccable collection, and I know that he would not have offered the snake if not confident that Torah would do a great job.
Again - something that posters weren't to know.
Your "body of text" (if you prefer that to essay LOL) was really well worded.
Just the kind of thing that forms very good practical reference should anyone need it.
There should be more people prepared to share the "passion and the progress".....thats what I'm here for !!!
My statement about jumping to conclusions may well apply to this whole site....and I wasn't having a go - just saying.
Sometimes the rude replies to innocent questions makes me cringe, however this is typically forum-centric (is there such a word?) right across the board as I am a member of a couple of other forums, and find the same thing occurs there.
People are seriously quicker to type cryptic/rude/denigrating responses when at a computer.
If that person was in front of you asking - then of course the response would be different and much kinder in approach.
Just as an aside - the breeder has been around for a VERY long time, keeps an impeccable collection, and I know that he would not have offered the snake if not confident that Torah would do a great job.
Again - something that posters weren't to know.
Your "body of text" (if you prefer that to essay LOL) was really well worded.
Just the kind of thing that forms very good practical reference should anyone need it.
There should be more people prepared to share the "passion and the progress".....thats what I'm here for !!!
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
Thanks ToadCountry,
I am very much aware that many of my posts are quite lengthy. For good or bad that’s me. No doubt I was being over-sensitive in interpreting your compliment as a double edged sword. My apologies for having done so.
I think there are a number of factors that contribute to the negative aspects that are all to prevalent in many forums. You are certainly correct about the lack of face to face contact being one of them. Another, I feel, is that often insufficient information is initially given and responding posters get set off on the wrong tack, whether be incorrect interpretation of the solution to a problem or incorrect assessment of what has taken place and why. Then it snowballs from there.
There are other factors but I believe the most critical is that it is considered acceptable to flame another. For that I hold the forum moderators responsible. A basic rule should be no personal attacks, with no exceptions. Tackle and critique what someone says but not the person saying it. If people adhered to that one basic rule the tone of the forum would change dramatically. For example, there is a significant difference between saying “I can’t believe you don’t even know the basics. No wonder the snake is not doing well” to saying “What you did is not the recommended way to go about it and would in all likelihood have an adverse effect on the snake”.
I agree about the enthusiasm and passion and progress. Where it shows up it blows me away. I have been interested in reptiles since before I can remember. 50 odd years on I still get a huge buzz out of seeing a live reptile or frog, especially in nature. I still thumb through the reptile books, mags and the net. It is definitely kind nice to know that there are lots of people out there with the same intense interests and some even more rabid!!!
Blue
I am very much aware that many of my posts are quite lengthy. For good or bad that’s me. No doubt I was being over-sensitive in interpreting your compliment as a double edged sword. My apologies for having done so.
I think there are a number of factors that contribute to the negative aspects that are all to prevalent in many forums. You are certainly correct about the lack of face to face contact being one of them. Another, I feel, is that often insufficient information is initially given and responding posters get set off on the wrong tack, whether be incorrect interpretation of the solution to a problem or incorrect assessment of what has taken place and why. Then it snowballs from there.
There are other factors but I believe the most critical is that it is considered acceptable to flame another. For that I hold the forum moderators responsible. A basic rule should be no personal attacks, with no exceptions. Tackle and critique what someone says but not the person saying it. If people adhered to that one basic rule the tone of the forum would change dramatically. For example, there is a significant difference between saying “I can’t believe you don’t even know the basics. No wonder the snake is not doing well” to saying “What you did is not the recommended way to go about it and would in all likelihood have an adverse effect on the snake”.
I agree about the enthusiasm and passion and progress. Where it shows up it blows me away. I have been interested in reptiles since before I can remember. 50 odd years on I still get a huge buzz out of seeing a live reptile or frog, especially in nature. I still thumb through the reptile books, mags and the net. It is definitely kind nice to know that there are lots of people out there with the same intense interests and some even more rabid!!!
Blue
Torah
Very Well-Known Member
Carnelian
Well-Known Member
What a little cutie Torah, congrats on getting her feeding, well done!
Torah
Very Well-Known Member
Thanx Carnelian ,she is my little precious , so gentle and calm . Really sweet little girl ! love her sooo much !
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