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Do Reptiles have emotions?

  • Yes

    Votes: 61 55.0%
  • No

    Votes: 35 31.5%
  • I'm not sure

    Votes: 15 13.5%

  • Total voters
    111
  • Poll closed .
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longqi, dont know if you remember wayyy back :) but i did day one of the experiment. do you want me to post day by day results or wait for the full 7 days?
 
And to go one step further, I would say emotions are in fact, a liability. :shock:

Good point. Humans suffering depression are emotionally "out of whack" - to express it colloquially - and can be completely incapacitated by it.
 
I remember,oh please post the results of day one.have been hoping you hadn't forgotton.This thread has hurt my head,nearly time for bed.
 
Lizardman
great point about crows etc
And how closely related are reptiles to birds
I know longpi posted this ageeees ago. But birds are reptiles, not just close birds are reptiles.

So how do you explain the absense of any learnings when humans are born?

When a snake is born it already knows everything it needs to know to survive, a human needs to be shown EVERYTHING.

A snake knows when it is in danger. We have to learn that something is not good for us whatever it might be. I believe reptiles at least show no emotion but act simply on instinct.

As for cats and dogs since they are mammals like us they have the ability to learn things and so can develop what we might call an emotional attachment. Show me a video of a snake that has learnt something new to their baser instincts. Cobras swaying to music in India doesn't count.

How does a snake show fear when it strikes at you even though it knows it can't eat you, or through the glass of its enclosure. It is displaying territorial threats and will do that as many times as needed until it thinks it has warded the threat off. In the wild a snake turns and runs from a bigger opponent not because it is scared of it but because it knows it has been bested by a superior animal, that is the way of the jungle. It isn't an emotion. It simply moves on to find an area it can control.
Firstly I think you mean absence of instincts at birth as those things that are known despite never being taught such as those known to a newborn organism are commonly defined. Then I say what do you mean by absence of instinct in newborn children? The most basic instinct a feeding response is well programmed into newborn children. Also I would argue that some part of social behavior is instinctual, (I agree the majority is learnt), the reason I would say this is through looking at people with say aspergers. These people in theory are raised the same as anyone else (of course within a margin of 'error') yet through an unknown function of the brain either in learning or instinctual concepts they are lacking. While it may be hard to rule out that this is not through learning I think it is more likely instinctual. My reasoning people with conditions like aspergers often have little trouble learning logical cognitive concepts (i.e. maths) but further can also similarly cope well with less logical concepts like paradox, infinity and quantum mechanics. While this shows they have at least some ability to view illogical concepts, these concepts cannot in my opinion link to any instinct. Social behavior on the other hand is a crucial part of human survival in the modern world and has every reason to be instinctual. I mean you yourself would agree that the response of one snake meeting another snake is instinctual? Why cannot a part of human social behavior be similar. This would mean most/many humans would have an instinctual factor to the way they socially interact. Thus it is shown both through a highly simple instinct that is shown in all organisms that feed, and a highly complex example for which I give no proof but show my reasoning, that humans do have clear instinctual factors when born.

Now onto the second part of your response. When a snake is born does it may know every instinct it needs to survive. I agree a snake has a clear feeding response, clear life cycle routine and in fact a clear majority of common/shared behaviors that are in my mind as well as yours, instinctual. But who is too say these instincts do not change over time? And if they do change over time is that not clear evidence that individual snakes have had different traits or responses to some environmental factor which is in fact not instinctual? I mean are you saying all instinct was just there in the beginning or is instinct the process of conditioning of many generations over a long period of time resulting in the unconscious programming of the animal to a certain response to certain stimuli? Ok so we say that in these instinctual developed situations we agree instinct comes into play and a relatively set response is elicited by the snake. But what of when a new stimuli is added? A new prey item for example. Every snake is a different individual, some will be curious enough at a new prey item and eat it, others will be more cautious and stick with regular prey items? If instinct is only a strong level of conditioning over a long period of time, than what is it that differs between these snakes for the different response to occur. We can rule out conditioning as the stimuli has never been seen before. We can rule out instinct as this appears to be a result of conditioning. Therefore I believe the difference is a choice. An example of problem solving at the absolute rock bottom lowest level, but an example nonetheless.

The next part of your response 'show you a video'. If you want me to find you a video of a snake being taught you are out of luck, I do not say a snake can be taught in this way. Conditioned yes (As vast amounts of anecdotal evidence suggests they can be), into feeding regimes, response to a constant stimuli as a constant situation. But this in no way changes that I think they do have an extremely limited and basic ability, but ability nonetheless to undergo a task based not of either instinct or conditioning.

For the last part of your response. I believe we come down to where I define emotion far differently from you. A snake running from a large predator, or striking through the glass. Sure this is instinct. The will to survive. What we humams define in ourselves as fear, I see only as an extremely complex version of this. Even in terms of irrational fear, something we can look at later and go "I know its not going to hurt me but I just can't stand it" (I am sure you have all had someone say this about your snake (Snake referring to the cladistic branch of reptiles. (Just to stop any jokes out there))). This response from humans is really either an instinctual (snake = bad) response, a response dictated by a conscious or unconscious event relating to the circumstance or through a society based understanding (snakes generally though of as dangerous = I shall fear them period). All of these fears relate back to a will for humans to survive (or not experience pain, or similar). Thus they are to me just a complex manifestation (The complexity driven by the excess complexity of the human relative to that of a snakes), of the same traits.
Thus and because of separate factors that I can hardly explain in my head I personally perceive instincts, conditioned behavior and cognitive ability to analyses a situation from a complex and self based point of view as different levels and complexities of what I define as emotion.

What places us at the top of the tree is quite simple really, it is our ability to look at something and ask ourselves WHY? That is abstract thought. To look for answers to questions we dream up ourselves. Why are we here? How did the universe get started. How far away is Andromeda. I am pretty sure there are not any apes or dolphins asking themselves these questions.
On a less serious note, how can we really know this (except for the andromeda part seeing as I doubt reptiles could know what is was regardless.) I mean seriously look at all the time a snake lies sitting in the sun, be pretty boring if nothing was going through its brain the whole time. Why should that something not be, 'Wow I wonder where I came from, I mean one day I was just like, here I am".
:p:p:p:p
 
is a human saying i have emotions but animals have instinct, just a way for us to differentiate ourselves from other animals?

There's always that danger as well. For a long time, for various reasons, humans have not liked the thought that we, too, are animals. Look at the reaction to Darwin's Origin of Species. While we've thankfully moved on quite a bit from that today, we still like to think that our intelligence and ability to feel emotion sets us apart from the animal world.

That doesn't mean, of course, that reptiles are emotional creatures. It just means we need to eliminate any such prejudices from our considerations.
 
Littleredjim
Fire away mate
Adding a bit of levity to serious debate is never a bad thing
Just one note of caution
To wear her dress is one thing
But I wouldnt advise too much make-up???

This thread is trowing up so many well constructed points that its almost unbelievable
I am really hoping for a draw
 
Regular updates thanks longqi, just so we know you're still with us.

Ha ha! Good idea.

Longqi - I hope you don't mind if I suggest an exercise.

If you have seen your reptile displaying a possible emotional response, please describe it. It will be interesting to see how those who have voted "no" interpret it.
 
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^^^
In this particular thread I would actually prefer not to say too much more at the present time
Most people know my feelings about this subject and as Devils Advocate I can assist which ever 'team' is losing
But the greatest thing about this debate is the 'evenness' of the answers from both sides
I truly did not expect anything like this when it started
 
^^^
Most people know my feelings about this subject and as Devils Advocate I can assist which ever 'team' is losing
But the greatest thing about this debate is the 'evenness' of the answers from both sides
I truly did not expect anything like this when it started

Sorry, Longqi, I probably didn't make it clear enough. I was actually directing that exercise at everyone participating in the discussion.

I have to agree that I've quite enjoyed this thread and it makes me even more certain that I want to study zoology. I also love that it has remained civilised. :)
 
Experiment Day 1: After much debate with my wife about the need to go fully indepth with this test and the need to switch not only clothes but underwear, make up and identity i recieved no such commitment. However, We did trade jeans (but i didnt fit hers so i wore some stretchy pants she has and jumpers and i wore gloves for the duration and also traded socks.
This test is no so much if snakes can have emotion, but if they recognise someone and possibly can view them as a safer zone! or something there abouts.
So we placed the coastal on the ground and as per usual she came strait back to me. we did this 4times at different distances and we also shuffled places a few times. eacha nd everytime the coastal came to me and proceeded to curl up on my leg.
However, my other olive seemed confused... came to my wife first but did not crawl up her. and then just stayed still. and the other 3 times, decided it did not want to go to either of us but just stay still on the grass. very odd as every other time it wood come 3outta 4 times.

repeated test in the afternoon. coastal came to my wife first time and again, stopped at her feet but didnt wrap up or get comfy. 2nd time it decided to stay still so we both walked closer slowly and once within a metre it came to me and wrapped itself up. final 2 times it wrapped up on me. the olive came to me twice strait away. and third time e and my wife dance around a bit and it went to her. 4th time it did neither.

so a little hit and miss so far. just for a point, my coastal would always come to me 10/10 times and my olive 3/5 and the other 2/5 it would do nothing. never goes to my wife.

so the fact that it went to my wife even once is a little bit interesting even though it didnt curl up on her. it just got to her feet and put its head on her foot and than just stops... hmmm

sorry, for typing it up so unorganised. im at work and trying to get it done fast
p.s. any ideas to change the test method would be appreciated!
 
It doesn't matter, the point is that just because an animal can doesn't mean it's in it's best interest to do so.

Thanks longirostris, I agree that the behaviour is most likely learned, but another case that comes to mind is a bird species that drops nuts into intersections in America then when the lights turn red and the traffic stops they fly down to collect the kernels. That's impressive, how was the example set for these birds to learn this behaviour?

Hi again Steve,

Now that is impressive. It is definately not instinctive, so it must be learned. The big question is, is it a conditioned response through observation or is it a cognitive solution. If it is cognitive it would imply that the birds have the ability to think to problem solve. I am still leaning towards observation and response as a consequence of observation. But I agree that is pretty amazing stuff and may very well be evidence of a cognitive response. The thing for me is that cognitive learning by definition means the ability to think and reason. Thinking implies free will, which ultimately leads to consciousness. Consciousness is an abstract concept which is what I was talking about earlier with my comments on abstract thinking. Again I find it difficult to believe that any animals other then humans have the capacity for abstract thought.
 
^^^^^
This exactly what I was hoping for with this thread
information passing to and from both sides to possibly help solve this question or at least help us to engage our brains a bit more instead of condemning other opinions out of hand simply because we had once been told the opposite

My hat is off for everyone involved so far
 
Hi again Steve,

Now that is impressive. It is definately not instinctive, so it must be learned. The big question is, is it a conditioned response through observation or is it a cognitive solution. If it is cognitive it would imply that the birds have the ability to think to problem solve. I am still leaning towards observation and response as a consequence of observation. But I agree that is pretty amazing stuff and may very well be evidence of a cognitive response. The thing for me is that cognitive learning by definition means the ability to think and reason. Thinking implies free will, which ultimately leads to consciousness. Consciousness is an abstract concept which is what I was talking about earlier with my comments on abstract thinking. Again I find it difficult to believe that any animals other then humans have the capacity for abstract thought.

Sorry to hijack your post but I believe birds (or at least some species of birds) can problem solve. It has been shown that crows can make tools, carry out a task and they are actually capable of teaching it to others. Crows also effectively eat cane toads by flipping them onto their back and avoiding the poison glands.
This is a good example of a crows ability to problem solve and yes it has been studied scientifically YouTube - Tool-Making Crows

 
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I agree that those deaths were mainly through handlers errors
I only used then to show that most people are no match for even a tamed retic

That last bit of your final sentence is really the questioned part in all this
They dont love so they go away??
They have instinctive reasoning to know that humans are danger??
Or they fear humans??

This is actually quite appropriate right this minute
I have a bit under 4metres of retic that up until a couple of days ago wanted to bite my face off lying beside on the bed as I write
[Uh Oh how did that story go again??}
It has spent most of today cruising around the bedroom or in its viv
Now that I am back inside it has slid up beside me

I am not suggesting in any way shape manner or form that it 'loves me' or anything else
Because if I move quickly it reacts instantly into strike position
But if Im gentle it will let me stroke it and doesnt attempt to move away
Its viv is open with its hide and so are two dark cupboards and yet it has chosen to come up here beside the guy who has been attempting to train it into accepting handling and who it tried to bite on far too many occasions for me to feel very comfortable just now

Maybe it's attracted to your body heat. I would hazzard a guess that right now your external (skin) body tempreture is higher then the ambient air tempreture which is probably about 27 or 28 degrees in the early to mid evening in Bali. Again I am guessing your body tempreture is several degrees higher then the ambient air temp at the time you posted your comment. Just a thought longqi.

Sorry to hijack your post but I believe birds (or at least some species of birds) can problem solve. It has been shown that crows can make tools, carry out a task and they are actually capable of teaching it to others. Crows also effectively eat cane toads by flipping them onto their back and avoiding the poison glands.
This is a good example of a crows ability to problem solve and yes it has been studied scientifically YouTube - Tool-Making Crows


No problem, you are not hijacking my post at all. Your point about using tools is well made and I agree that there are a number of animals that use tools in the collection and or extraction of food. Interesting point is that tool use in animals is almost always associated with the collection or extraction of food. My belief is that in all cases where tool use by animals is observed it is a conditioned response to a baser stimuli. By this I mean that the animal has learned what to do through observation and trial. In some cases the response may be even baser then conditioned and could very well be a programmed response (instinctive). I tend to lean towards tool use as a conditioned learning response. In the case of your crows with the Cane Toads it most definately is a conditioned response. The Crows have observed other crows eating cane toads and watched the results. They have also learned again by trial and observation that flipping the cane toad on its back makes the cane toad vulnerable. I do not believe the Crow recognised the cane toad had poison glands in its upper dermis and then thought that if it flipped it over the underbelly may not have poison glands. The whole process would have been accidental. A crow in the process of trying to grab a toad flipped it on its back accidentally and consumed it whilst still on its back with no ill effect. Other crows observe behaviour which first crow by now has repeated several times successfully and try it themselves. This is a conditioned response to a baser stimuli. I am not even sure I would call it problem solving unless you are trying to attach a human label to the behaviour. Problem solving is how WE describe the behaviour we are observing in the animals. If I was going to solve a problem I need to be aware that a problem exists and then I would need to understand the complexity of the problem and from there I would need to think (cognitive response) about how I am going to resolve said problem. Awareness/consciousness/thinking come back into play in this discussion. These are concepts that are for me require an brain capable of abstract thought. I do not believe this exists any where alse on earth other then in Humans.
 
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^^^^
You are possibly 100% correct
As I said I was not inferring anything by what I wrote there
It was just coincidental that that was happening with a snake that I really have a lot of misgivings about while I was replying to this thread
I have no doubt in my mind what so ever that tomorrow or next week etc it will definitely have another go at getting me and I am not looking forward to evading it again by any stretch of imagination
 
^^^^
You are possibly 100% correct
As I said I was not inferring anything by what I wrote there
It was just coincidental that that was happening with a snake that I really have a lot of misgivings about while I was replying to this thread
I have no doubt in my mind what so ever that tomorrow or next week etc it will definitely have another go at getting me and I am not looking forward to evading it again by any stretch of imagination

Maybe its time for bed.I think I have been doing enough abstract thinking for one night. Good thread longqi and noone has gotten nasty which is a real achievement. Have a good night.
 
I said yes, but admit I have not read the responses as there are so many.

Although I don't personally have a snake at this stage as I'm still undecided as to whether it would be better to buy one to own or to become a wildlife carer for reptiles, I have been around them for a while and can generally tell if they are in the right mood to be handled or if they want to be left alone. This tells me that they have emotions, just like with my dog, he can get into moods which tells me he is feeling things beyond what instinct tells him.

However, it's one of those things where it's all about how we personally feel rather than what proof we can offer. I believe anything with a brain and a heartbeat has emotions, can be afraid, stressed, happy and to some extent, excited.
 
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