Native GTP proof

[Waterrat]

I can't find the original thread but just recently, Mudimans, who bought a hatchling from me has been asked by DERM / QPWS for a proof that the snake is a native GTP. He has been specifically asked to provide a "DNA proof".

After some enquiries with many staff members of the Department, I was told the following:
When a GTP is "moved" from one person to another, DERM automatically assumes that it is a non-native and the new owner is advised to amend their licence to include "international" GTPs.
This alone is pointless and serves no purpose because the animal is entered in the owner's book as "GTP" and the same goes on DERM's records. There is particular status (native / non-native) assigned to the animals. Also, there is no such thing as "international licence", it's merely an amendment to an existing or newly issued Recreational Licence.

Whilst DERM has the right to request a DNA samples from captive GTPs, they are in no position to demand DNA profiling report and that for several reasons; 1/ such service is not readily available to the public, 2/ it incurs a significant cost and 3/ in some circumstances the results may be inconclusive.

I was told that if a person is buying a native GTP and wants to have the animal registered as such, a proof of "origin" is required. I first thought they were referring to geographical origin, i.e. Australia, PNG or West Papua but apparently it's not the case. "Origin" means the person who bred the snakes. This is weird because the transaction between the breeder and the buyer is documented in the Movement Advice, I would think.
However, the end result was satisfactory, the snake in question is now registered as native and I was also told that they have no problems with the origins (different origins this time) of my snakes and I have been advised to keep issuing the certificates I send out with each snake - it's a good enough "proof of origin". That's nice ....

I am looking for some logic in all this but it's hard to find. In any case, I would strongly advise people acquiring native GTPs to insist on having them registered as such otherwise in time, the native status may disappear.

This may only concern Queenslanders.


Cheers
M

 

[andysnakes]

thats the governement for you....

 

[Owzi]

To be the devil's advocate Michael, how do you prove to the QPWS your Greens are native?
Wouldn't their paperwork just say your founding Greens came from NSW after the amnisty?

 

[getarealdog]

You should asked them for proof that they are who they say they are, sound like sorrya..e BLUES to me seeking revenge! Go the MAROONS!

 

[Waterrat]

To be the devil's advocate Michael, how do you prove to the QPWS your Greens are native?
Wouldn't their paperwork just say your founding Greens came from NSW after the amnisty?

PM sent.

You should asked them for proof that they are who they say they are, sound like sorrya..e BLUES to me seeking revenge! Go the MAROONS!

I did but they must be operating under different law to us ordinary citizens. Strangely enough, it's us who have to prove otherwise and we should also remember that a government department is never wrong.

 

[PythonRob]

Wow Michael, thanks for the post with something informative instead of the usual "show us ya greens!!!" etc.

Yes it is always a concern when we are in a hobby controlled by governments in various states of Australia (ie:not the cat/dog/fluffy rabbit hobbies which dont have such government control and licencing).

Having kept reptiles for 25 yrs now, most of us prior to the mid-1990's amnesty had either collected or been in possession from reptiles collected from the wild. Back then I travelled by train & car from NSW to QLD to buy my pythons from breeders and eventually had them licensed in NSW under the first amnesty. I also saw some people down here have reptiles confiscated which was always a concern.

With pythons from Australia, (obviously) we can tell they are native but GTP variations come from different countries and lots have been imported over time. The costs or availablility here had been very hard to aquire these up to about 2 years ago now and only now we are seeing prices drop and some available on the market in in Australia. In NSW I have seen several breeders with lots of GTP that would be reaching maturity now and should be breeding in the coming years.

We now see many GTP's available for sale on www or shows that are not native and seriously look aweful in colour. There is no wonder the prices have significantly dropped.

I hope we keep GTP's registered as either "Natives" or "Imports" without having to go to cost or trouble of DNA etc.

DNA testing etc is such an unnecessary cost and as a hobby I have always said we should start developing a better relationship with the different State's in Australia licensing authorities who should in term start trusting us responsible breeders.

By us being open/honest and responsible as breeders and having a better relationship with the government authorites can only be a benefit to us and stop any previous "black market" and "illegal imports" activity of the past dark old days.

Keep up the great work.

 

[grimbeny]

Is there sufficient profiling of GTPs that someone could even do DNA testing to prove they are of Australian origin? I remember people used to use mitochondrial DNA to identify GTPs as Australian but this could only show the maternal line as native.

 

[Waterrat]

The thing that bothers me is what kind of proof of origin will the QPWS require if a person is importing a GTP from outside Qld, where the respective departments make no distinction between native and non-native.
What bother me even more, if a law abiding citizen says "I bought this GTP and it is an Aussie native", why such declaration should be challenged by the authorities? If they doubt the integrity of the statement, isn't it up to them to prove otherwise?
Sadly, we give in too easily. If you ever find yourself in such situation, lift your cloaca off your chair and do something about it. There are ways.

 

[Ramsayi]

I hope we keep GTP's registered as either "Natives" or "Imports" without having to go to cost or trouble of DNA etc.

Wouldn't this be exactly where we are now in that we only have a breeders word on origin?

Owzi asked waterrat a simple question and the response was "PM sent",quite ironic given that waterrat was the one who started the thread in the first place.

 

[stockhorse]

I did but they must be operating under different law to us ordinary citizens. Strangely enough, it's us who have to prove otherwise and we should also remember that a government department is never wrong.

With due respect that is total bollocks and does not apply to any state govt department.

Since you are saying that you need to provide DNA to prove the animal is native,this implies that they have available to them a DNA record for all native GTP.Give them a sample of poo for them to do the DNA test and compare with their records.If it is returned as non native ask them how they got DNA records for all natives and that you require to see the full test results and a full copy of their records for third party evaluation.They will assess your animals as native on the spot drama over for nil cost to you and they will go back to the office and sleep the day away as usual.

 

[Waterrat]

Wouldn't this be exactly where we are now in that we only have a breeders word on origin?

Owzi asked waterrat a simple question and the response was "PM sent",quite ironic given that waterrat was the one who started the thread in the first place.

Ransay, there is nothing ironic about it. Please diferentiate and respect private versus public issues. I had enough fights with the knockers years ago and no, thanks, no more. You can think what you like about my position.

Please let me clear this up for those who didn't understand: The QLd Department is NOT insisting on a DNA analysis report as a mean of proof of origins. In this particular case, an officer overstepped his line of duty or didn't understand the 2006 Regulations (he referred to, which are outdated anyway). They like to have a proof of "origin" - who bred the snakes in question - not a geographical origin. I already expressed my opinion on this - isn't the Movement Advice a proof of where the snakes came from?
So, please take note - NO DNA ANALYSIS REPORT IS REQUIRED BY DERM / QPWS according to what I have been told two days ago.

 

[Bryce]

To be the devil's advocate Michael, how do you prove to the QPWS your Greens are native?
Wouldn't their paperwork just say your founding Greens came from NSW after the amnisty?

Hey Michael how do you prove this?? I would love to know as well???????

 

[DanTheMan]

It was an absolute joke, just trying to get a few more dollars and justify their existence. Glad it all got sorted. You could have put it on licence as M. spilota and they wouldn’t have known the difference anyway.

 

[FusionMorelia]

so the sellers certificate isnt good enough? so after you buy a high grade animal
you have to pay for DNA testing etc etc? so after purchase what's it gonna cost
the buyer for DNA testing? will the government pay for it?

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

so the sellers certificate isnt good enough? so after you buy a high grade animal
you have to pay for DNA testing etc etc? so after purchase what's it gonna cost
the buyer for DNA testing? will the government pay for it?

The government pay for it???? are you kidding they don't even give you a postage paid return envelope with your BAS...

 

[Waterrat]

Hey Michael how do you prove this?? I would love to know as well???????

No offence please, but I don't have to prove anything to anybody, especially not to the wide audience on a public forum. I have been through this ******** endless times some years ago and I am over it.
... like my snakes? Buy them. Have some problems with my integrity? Don't buy them.

Ohh...

 

[longqi]

When you see how closely some Meraukes etc resemble Cape Yorks I think any department would have a fine old time trying to prove anything
Maybe Biaks; Lake Kabutus; Misools and Kafiaus would have different DNA but I reckon the rest are pretty closely related