BigWillieStyles
Well-Known Member
Well said.
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Well said.
F
FAY
Guest
You are not even getting my first post.
Like I have said...It is NOT Black and White.
Like I have said...It is NOT Black and White.
Australis
Almost Legendary
No one cares what you think is an acceptable cage size for an adder, that the point.
SteveNT
Very Well-Known Member
They will just cut out more Rangers - end result- the desk drivers (beaurocrats) will have even less information to base their idiotic decisions on. It happens here too. Empty Ranger stations and monumental stuff ups by the ever expanding legions of desk drivers.
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
Maybe we should be focussing on what is an acceptable brain size for keepers instead.....
F
FAY
Guest
ShaunMorelia
Very Well-Known Member
My main concerns are that an animal will be classed as an adult at 12mths of age, not based on their size and also that their "code of Practise" is to change within 5 years and we are to comply to that "Standard" as well.
The "code of practice" would be fine if used as a guidline, the first installment sizes in my opinion are fine. But the 2nd installment is so far off its not funny.
They are expecting the keep to provide an enclosure that is more than double in size for a morelia species.
I keep some animals in tubs, some in enclosures. I have found tubs that are 1200mm X 550mm X 550mm. So really that is no different than keeping the same snake in a melamine box.
The "code of practice" would be fine if used as a guidline, the first installment sizes in my opinion are fine. But the 2nd installment is so far off its not funny.
They are expecting the keep to provide an enclosure that is more than double in size for a morelia species.
I keep some animals in tubs, some in enclosures. I have found tubs that are 1200mm X 550mm X 550mm. So really that is no different than keeping the same snake in a melamine box.
killimike
Well-Known Member
I am still puzzled by people who say it is for the snake's welfare.... why don't we have similar laws regarding cats, dogs, mice, rats, rabbits, ferrets, guinea pigs etc etc? Oh wait we do, generic legislation against animal cruelty.
The naive anthropomorphism of comments about putting humans in tiny cages "to see how you like it" is just that. So you feed your snake once a week? How about I do the same to you and see how you like it? duh.
I appreciate Fay's point, experienced keepers should not be legislated out of doing what is best for the animals. If you legislate to the lowest common denominator, you will just end up causing good guys trouble as they cross the 'i' and dot the 't', get caught and fined on the technicality, while the 'horrible abusers' don't play into the system and mostly never get caught anyway.
The naive anthropomorphism of comments about putting humans in tiny cages "to see how you like it" is just that. So you feed your snake once a week? How about I do the same to you and see how you like it? duh.
I appreciate Fay's point, experienced keepers should not be legislated out of doing what is best for the animals. If you legislate to the lowest common denominator, you will just end up causing good guys trouble as they cross the 'i' and dot the 't', get caught and fined on the technicality, while the 'horrible abusers' don't play into the system and mostly never get caught anyway.
dixilizards
Well-Known Member
The way i am lead to believe this is to run, and by no means am I in the loop, is that an adult animal will be classed at 12 months of age so do I take it at that time frame both a Carpet, Scrubbie and Olive will have to be kept in the same size enclosure as the Anteresia species'??
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wokka
Guest
how can you tell if an animal is under 12 months of age or over 1 months of age?
alrightknight
Active Member
Seems to be a lot of snake psychologists here who know what it is snakes exactly like. If people keep there snakes in tubs and smaller enclosures for young pythons ( up to 18months etc) and they have never had problems with them, obviously there is nothing harmful about it. Making them go out upgrade environments for snakes that are already well established in smaller homes just seems ridiculous to me.
I'm just a beginner, but people who have been in the hobby for many years and have never had problems in the sized enclosures they use should not be asked to change that.
I'm just a beginner, but people who have been in the hobby for many years and have never had problems in the sized enclosures they use should not be asked to change that.
killimike
Well-Known Member
The point is it was a faulty analogy. Also, what is 'natural' (by which we mean 'beneficial' not really what happens in the wild) is precisely what is in question, so cannot be assumed.
Australis
Almost Legendary
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
I get the feeling people don’t know what the new regulations are. Highly experienced keepers who have the welfare of their animals at heart made up the consultation group. That group was then excluded from the final discussions and decisions by megalomaniac bureaucrats. So what you have ended up with is an inflexible and substantial over-reaction by would-be do-gooders that don’t have a good understanding of captive behaviour in snakes. Had they accepted the good advice given them, this thread would not exist.
And for those concerned that the advice given was about allowing tiny cage sizes, I can assure that it most certainly did NOT follow the American lead.
Blue
And for those concerned that the advice given was about allowing tiny cage sizes, I can assure that it most certainly did NOT follow the American lead.
Blue
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
Blue
We have different duties of care depending on what we do with reptiles
As a demonstrator my first duty of care is to humans who visit and want to play with snakes
As a breeder my first duty of care is to my brood stock
As a hobbyist my duty of care is to all my reptiles
As a rescuer/relocator my duty of care is to myself first then the reptile
While we continue to encourage the use of small racks and click clacks I personally dont feel that is in the best interest of the reptiles
Anything that helps get rid of this all too common practice among hobbyists is only for the good
I completely agree that some species of snakes require much less room than others, the afore mentioned Death Adders being a case in point
But snakes like these are still pretty rarely kept and breed anywhere in Australia
By far the majority of snakes kept in Australia are various morelia
Given the opportunity these are a pretty active reptile
The excuse given of "Oh its a poor feeder; I have to keep it in a click clack" is irrelevant
The reason its irrelevant is that it is simple to put the click clack [or small hide] into a larger enclosure with an entry exit hole in it. Sooner or later the reptile will venture outside; but the reptile has the choice
I have a lot of sympathy for most breeders in NSW now as they really are caught between a rock and a hard place as most will not be able to retain so many yearlings etc and this may result in a lot of downsizing after these regs come into force
While these proposed regulations do have some glaring errors/oversights they are better than anything in force at present
I totally agree that Bureaucrats are idiots in the most part
My fault about the American Lead but I have visited too many warehouses choker block with brood stock and hatchies in lunch boxes floor to ceiling and anything that slows down the probability of that happening in Aus can only be good for the snakes
We have different duties of care depending on what we do with reptiles
As a demonstrator my first duty of care is to humans who visit and want to play with snakes
As a breeder my first duty of care is to my brood stock
As a hobbyist my duty of care is to all my reptiles
As a rescuer/relocator my duty of care is to myself first then the reptile
While we continue to encourage the use of small racks and click clacks I personally dont feel that is in the best interest of the reptiles
Anything that helps get rid of this all too common practice among hobbyists is only for the good
I completely agree that some species of snakes require much less room than others, the afore mentioned Death Adders being a case in point
But snakes like these are still pretty rarely kept and breed anywhere in Australia
By far the majority of snakes kept in Australia are various morelia
Given the opportunity these are a pretty active reptile
The excuse given of "Oh its a poor feeder; I have to keep it in a click clack" is irrelevant
The reason its irrelevant is that it is simple to put the click clack [or small hide] into a larger enclosure with an entry exit hole in it. Sooner or later the reptile will venture outside; but the reptile has the choice
I have a lot of sympathy for most breeders in NSW now as they really are caught between a rock and a hard place as most will not be able to retain so many yearlings etc and this may result in a lot of downsizing after these regs come into force
While these proposed regulations do have some glaring errors/oversights they are better than anything in force at present
I totally agree that Bureaucrats are idiots in the most part
My fault about the American Lead but I have visited too many warehouses choker block with brood stock and hatchies in lunch boxes floor to ceiling and anything that slows down the probability of that happening in Aus can only be good for the snakes
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
What you are referring to is the needs of the high volume breeder vs the needs of the snake. I agree that is definitely a difference between survival and quality of life. Snakes kept in tiny racks survive but are deprived of the much wider range of sensory stimuli that can be made available in a larger space not to mention the benefits of being more mobile. They can engage and react to a much greater set of stimuli – which although not entirely natural, is a lot closer to that which they experience in small opaque plastic containers. Hence your comparison to battery hens. The reality is, of course, that not only breeders are guilty of confining their pets.
I believe we do agree in principle. However, in practice I am not sure. Caging requirements vary for different species and for different sized individuals of a given species. Arboreal species need the height instead of the width. Semi-arboreal species need both height and width. Highly active species need more volume than equivalent sized inactive species. The size of a cage and its dimensions should be determined by the size of the occupant, how active the occupant is and whether it is arboreal or terrestrial or both. Bottom line – you want to provide an enclosure, the dimensions of which will allow as close as possible for the occupant to act as it would in nature.
Part of the problem is that there is not that fined grained differentiation in the standards they have set, so a lot of the time people are going to have to house animals in cages that are larger and often much larger than they need be. It will certainly stop the rack style raising but is going to unnecessarily inconvenience the general hobbyist in term of financial out and availability of space with corresponding limitations on numbers that can be kept. The other aspect is what Fay pointed out. By defining an a yearling as an adult and insisting it therefore go into a much larger enclosure, both the keeper and the snake lose out.
I agree that legislating minimum cage sizes might seem like a potential positive step. However, when you scratch the surface you start to realise it is actually a retrograde step. Providing recommendations for minimum cage sizes is all that is required, if that.
Blue
I believe we do agree in principle. However, in practice I am not sure. Caging requirements vary for different species and for different sized individuals of a given species. Arboreal species need the height instead of the width. Semi-arboreal species need both height and width. Highly active species need more volume than equivalent sized inactive species. The size of a cage and its dimensions should be determined by the size of the occupant, how active the occupant is and whether it is arboreal or terrestrial or both. Bottom line – you want to provide an enclosure, the dimensions of which will allow as close as possible for the occupant to act as it would in nature.
Part of the problem is that there is not that fined grained differentiation in the standards they have set, so a lot of the time people are going to have to house animals in cages that are larger and often much larger than they need be. It will certainly stop the rack style raising but is going to unnecessarily inconvenience the general hobbyist in term of financial out and availability of space with corresponding limitations on numbers that can be kept. The other aspect is what Fay pointed out. By defining an a yearling as an adult and insisting it therefore go into a much larger enclosure, both the keeper and the snake lose out.
I agree that legislating minimum cage sizes might seem like a potential positive step. However, when you scratch the surface you start to realise it is actually a retrograde step. Providing recommendations for minimum cage sizes is all that is required, if that.
Blue
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longqi
Very Well-Known Member
I do actually agree with a lot of what you have said
But I wasnt really only talking about commercial breeders [who I really for in this particular instance]
There have been a lot of threads and discussion lately about how long you can keep various morelia including GTPs in click clacks and racks
And the people asking are not commercial breeders, so that is a worry as they must be more like reptile collectors
The task they were given is virtually impossible to make perfect because even various morelia reach very differing sizes depending on locality; eg Palmerston and Atherton Jungles; yet are exactly the same scientifically
So to try to give exact dimensions for each species would be impossible
But I wasnt really only talking about commercial breeders [who I really for in this particular instance]
There have been a lot of threads and discussion lately about how long you can keep various morelia including GTPs in click clacks and racks
And the people asking are not commercial breeders, so that is a worry as they must be more like reptile collectors
The task they were given is virtually impossible to make perfect because even various morelia reach very differing sizes depending on locality; eg Palmerston and Atherton Jungles; yet are exactly the same scientifically
So to try to give exact dimensions for each species would be impossible
It's interesting that the B-Cats care so much about our snakes, yet overlook housing laws for other animals (chickens, cows, refugees)... thats just racist towards reptile keepers lol
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