Re think Cage Sizes

[snakehandler]

So how does one go about decking what sized enclosure is best for the animals welfare? We cannot use home ranges as an indicator as not enough is known about those for each species permitted to be kept, so do we go in past history? What has worked for others....do we look at stress indicators, but that will change for each individual, do we then look at the purpose of the animal, display, demonstration, breeder, pet? Should they all be considered the same? The main thing to remember is that different species have different requirements and to make generalizations will not be in the best interest of the animals!

 

[Colin]

theres a few people involved in these government departments that are pushin g for this cage size mandatory introduction that are animal liberationists by whatever name they use.. its still the same brush.. theres been a world wide trend for these people infiltrating government departments and trying to influence the culture of the government depatments to this "animal libber" way of thinking.. the RSPCA is basically an animal libber organization. and PETA are animal libbers

Its been stated by one of these DECC blokes in public he would prefer that no one was allowed to keep native animals at all.. and thats what their aim is.. It has nothing to do with animal welfare or keeping animals properly etc They cant take our licences off us BUT they have used this TROJAN HORSE caging requirment draft to try and force people out of the hobby by making the requirements of keeping our animals financially prohibitive by increasing the enclosue sizes to ridiculous levels.. so if introduced it will start to acheive their aim of forcing people out of the hobby and keeping reptiles by this trojan horse method called the DECC caging mandatory requirement.. even though ALL the actual experts in these fields that have REAL experience with REPTILES say the caging sizes mandatory rules are unecessary and detrimental to the animals.. all this was ignored by the government pushing for its introduction because they dont give a stuff about the animals at all and its all to stop us keeping them. why have the real experts been ignored? why have the DECC gone ito secret mode and are trying to hide what they are doing? Its a scam and because the reptile community are not organised and we fight between ourselves we are seen as an "easy mark" for these animal libbers to divide and conquer.. we need to put our differences aside and we need to join forces into one body (NRKA) and get some good legal representation to take these people on in court. And get some media exposure to shame the ministers and governement enough to stomp on this cage size rubbish.

THATS what I think its all about and have stated this same reason a few years ago on here... nothings changed and these same animal libbers have been manipulating this caging push.. Have a look at the letter from the DDI to the DECC that came with the freedom of information caging docs last year..

Jamie.. come on mate.. have your say

 

[dixilizards]

Colin,

I completely agree that we need a central society/body for the representation of all reptile keepers in Australia, throughout our hobby we have many well known names that can help with publicity and exposure to the greater public.

It surely can't be that hard for the currently operating Herp Society's to join as one and work toward this common good for us keepers.

Has this idea ever been entertained in the past?

I for one would be more than happy to enter into a class action for the, frankly, stupid and ill informed decisions made by organisations that have little to no knowledge of reptiles and there requirements first hand.

I think with all the recent expansion of reptile keepers in this country that we need to begin a much larger push and unite to work as one!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

The regs are for the benefit of most snakes
For breeders etc they will be a pain in the backside if they retain too many yearlings
Too bad
For those who keep lots of larger snakes in racks or plastic boxes
Too bad
Basically if you dont have enough room to house your babies sell some

Far too many people have adopted the American system thats all over Utube etc
Those ideas are for full time commercial breeders who have $$$$ as their bottom line
Hobbyists should be looking at aesthetics and welfare as well

For those who say if they live and breed they are ok
Battery hens live and breed
Force fed pigs live and breed
So in that perspective you are correct
But is it good for the long term?

.

Having been involved in this exercise from the outset Longqi, I have to say that your first premise is incorrect. The evolution of MANDATORY cage sizes has far more to do with politics and the personal opinions/beliefs/prejudices of the bureaucrats who entered into discussions with some of the most experienced reptile keepers in the country, and after 18 months, discarded the advice they were given by the very people who have made reptiles a major part of their professional lives. With an exception or two, the consultants were NOT professional or commercial breeders.

From the outset, but unknown to us, this has been an exercise to force a particular ideology on reptile keepers in NSW, and it is part of an Australia-wide move to force more controls by legislation onto reptile keepers in this country. It is no secret that reptile keepers are regarded with distaste by most state bureaucracies in this country. The 'look' of enclosures is very important to them, but the fact that our breeding successes and the general health of our captives has never been better in the history of keeping, escapes them, and it seems, you too.

I'm surprised to see Bluetongue1 suggesting that increasing the power of the enforcers might be a helpful step, especially as he lives in WA, where reptile keepers still have crawl on their bellies to please their bureaucratic masters. Enforcement does little or nothing to address the problem of cruelty - cruel or insensitive people are always just that, and most will never be scrutinised.

The problem with all of this is that the Department has been asked
many times for details of ongoing problems, or in fact ANY evidence of an ongoing problem with regard to keeper cruelty, and our requests fall on deaf ears.

This legislation is the baby of a couple of zealous bureaucrats who have found something they think will have their names up in lights if they succeed in wielding the big hammer. ANY legislation MUST be justified by evidence of need before being inflicted on the public.

They have not justified it because they can't, so they remain silent.

Longqi, whilst I understand your concern for the welfare of all captive reptiles, you are probably very anthropomorphic in your approach If you accept the fact that a snake in prime physical condition, which breeds well and is in all repects a healthy animal, as many more of our captives are today compared to even 20 years ago, then we as group must be doing something right. There is no reasonable comparison which can be made with battery hens or intensive piggeries - neither of which I approve of... and don't even get me started on the live cattle & sheep export trades... If you live in Indonesia, perhaps you should spend a bit of time trying to change the barbaric practices with these animals there, rather than suggesting that something may not be right with the private reptile keeping hobby here...

Jamie

 

[nathancl]

Its been discussed alot, media exposure might backfire also because the general public will of course think its cruel to keep animals in little plastic boxes.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

DECCW (as it was then) has argued that public perception is a major consideration in their endeavour to bring this new thinking into reality.

My argument is: how many members of the uninvolved public do you know, who truly understand the needs of reptiles? Would you be happy allowing the naive opinions of people who don't know anything about reptiles dictate to you how you keep your animals? That's a part of what the Department is building in to this legislation.

In effect, it's a PR exercise for the Department, so they can be seen to be doing something - invent a problem which doesn't exist, convince everybody that there is a problem and they can fix it with a big stick (and funnel more money into the bureaucracy for more staff), and then be seen to fix it so it looks great on your CV... it happens everywhere, but there is no need for this here, so it should not happen.

Education is the ONLY way to bring about a broad change of attitude in any community. If you keep on educating, you keep on managing any potential problems...

But you don't get your name up in lights for that...

Jamie

 

[BigWillieStyles]

The problem with all of this is that the Department has been asked
many times for details of ongoing problems, or in fact ANY evidence of an ongoing problem with regard to keeper cruelty, and our requests fall on deaf ears.

This legislation is the baby of a couple of zealous bureaucrats who have found something they think will have their names up in lights if they succeed in wielding the big hammer. ANY legislation MUST be justified by evidence of need before being inflicted on the public.

They have not justified it because they can't, so they remain silent.

Jamie

I find it amazing that people who call themselves animal lovers are trying to suggest that there needs to be less stringent legislation and pushing for the concept of plastic boxes.

As far as Im aware RSPCA has little to do with reptiles, and the major imput driving these changes is recommendations from the Native Animal Keepers Consultative Committee which has three members who are experts on reptiles. To claim that these changes are made by beaurocrates who know little about reptiles or have not consulted in regard to these changes is obsurd.

 

[wokka]

I find it amazing that people who call themselves animal lovers are trying to suggest that there needs to be less stringent legislation and pushing for the concept of plastic boxes.

.

Legislation does little to help animals. Take licencing as an example. I believe as many animals are kept off licence by those wishing to avoid any scrutiny. If ever the current draft code is addopted as enforcable legislation, it will increase incentive for keepers to move underground. Plastic boxes have there place as do cages and outdoor pits, but animals are individuals anddont necessarily fit into a "one size fits all" set of rules.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I find it amazing that people who call themselves animal lovers are trying to suggest that there needs to be less stringent legislation and pushing for the concept of plastic boxes.

As far as Im aware RSPCA has little to do with reptiles, and the major imput driving these changes is recommendations from the Native Animal Keepers Consultative Committee which has three members who are experts on reptiles. To claim that these changes are made by beaurocrates who know little about reptiles or have not consulted herpetculturalists is obsurd.

Nobody said anything about less stringent legislation BWS, if you are going to contribute usefully, it would be better if you took the time to read the posts and understand the issues.

With regard to the NAKCC - who do you think occupy some of the chairs when the NAKCC meets? The very bureaucrats who, in their day jobs, are pushing this stuff through their departments. The NAKCC is made up of a range of people from diverse backgrounds and occupations, not surprisingly some of them work for Government departments...

Jamie

 

[BigWillieStyles]

Nobody said anything about less stringent legislation BWS, if you are going to contribute usefully, it would be better if you took the time to read the posts and understand the issues.

With regard to the NAKCC - who do you think occupy some of the chairs when the NAKCC meets? The very bureaucrats who, in their day jobs, are pushing this stuff through their departments. The NAKCC is made up of a range of people from diverse backgrounds and occupations, not surprisingly some of them work for Government departments...

Jamie

I did read through the whole thread and was responding to the fact that some posts are suggesting that small plastic boxes are suitable.

Your right, the Native Animal Keeper Consultation Committee is made up of a diverse group that include Professional Herpetologists Glen O'shea and Gerry Swan both that have been active in scientific and herpetculturalist groups for many years.

 

[wokka]

I did read through the whole thread and was responding to the fact that some posts are suggesting that small plastic boxes are suitable.

Your right, the Native Animal Keeper Consultation Committee is made up of a diverse group that include Professional Herpetologists Glen O'shea and Gerry Swan both that have been active in scientific and herpetculturalist groups for many years.

Are you suggesting that Glen or Gerry support legislated minimum cage sizes ?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I did read through the whole thread and was responding to the fact that some posts are suggesting that small plastic boxes are suitable.

Your right, the Native Animal Keeper Consultation Committee is made up of a diverse group that include Professional Herpetologists Glen O'shea and Gerry Swan both that have been active in scientific and herpetculturalist groups for many years.

Dr Glenn Shea and Gerry Swan are also, like me, members of the Expert Advisory Group put together by DECCW as a consultative group for the development of the Reptile Keepers Code of Practice. The EAG is UNANIMOUSLY opposed to the introduction of mandatory standards for reptile keepers in NSW, ESPECIALLY mandatory cage sizes. This includes Glenn Shea and Gerry Swan. And yes, DECCW has disregarded the advice of both these very learned gentlemen.

Glenn Shea is a veterinary scientist, with a big interest in herpetology, not a professional herpetologist. Gerry could be described as an author and field biologist.

Jamie

 

[BigWillieStyles]

Dr Glenn Shea and Gerry Swan are also, like me, members of the Expert Advisory Group put together by DECCW as a consultative group for the development of the Reptile Keepers Code of Practice. The EAG is UNANIMOUSLY opposed to the introduction of mandatory standards for reptile keepers in NSW, ESPECIALLY mandatory cage sizes. This includes Glenn Shea and Gerry Swan.

Glenn Shea is a veterinary scientis, not a professional herpetologist. Gerry could be described as an author and field biologist.

Jamie

Well thats just stupidity being opposed to mandatory standards and is really making the assumption that every reptile owner will always choose the animals welfare first.

Gerry Swan was President of the Australian Herpetological Society 1975-1977 and 1995-1998 and Glenn Shea is a senior lecture at Sydney University with over 80 scientific papers to his name with his major research focus on 'Systematics and natural history of Australasian reptiles and amphibians.'

 

[GeckoJosh]

Being the president of AHS or any Herp society doesn't automatically make you a Herpetologist, it just makes you a sucker for punishment lol

 

[BigWillieStyles]

Being the president of AHS or any Herp society doesn't make you a Herpetologist, it just makes you a sucker for punishment lol

Well what does make someone a professional herpetologist? In my understanding, having appropriate qualifications, work experience, published literatue and participation in professional reptile discussion groups?

Getting a bit of topic now

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Well thats just stupidity being opposed to mandatory standards and is really making the assumption that every reptile owner will always choose the animals welfare first.

Gerry Swan was President of the Australian Herpetological Society 1975-1977 and 1995-1998 and Glenn Shea is a senior lecture at Sydney University with over 80 scientific papers to his name with his major research focus on 'Systematics and natural history of Australasian reptiles and amphibians.'

BWS, I've worked with these two people, and the other 6 or 7 members of the EAG for almost 3 years now. You'll have to ask them why they oppose the mandatory standards as strongly as I do, but I'm sure they will have the same reasons as I have. Call them stupid if you will... I think they are wise men indeed.

Or are you suggesting I am misrepresenting their position on this matter? You'll have to ask them yourself to get the picture "from the horses mouth" so to speak. As a matter of interest, the current President of the AHS, Michael Duncan, is also on the EAG, and shares the same opinion as the rest of the group. As I said, the opposition to mandatory standards is unanimous, and the reasons have been well explained.

Maybe there's something you missed... or perhaps they know a bit more about it than you do...

Jamie

 

[mysnakesau]

I have tried and tested putting smaller snakes in larger enclosures and I have not had a lot of success with them. For one, the snakes seem to be frightened of the amount of space they have which then causes problems such as permanent hiding, they stop feeding and their general well being deteriorates, and they can have difficulty finding warm spots, water and hides simply because they are too scared to move. I use to believe it was cruel keeping snakes in small tubs etc, but now I am learning, by my animals behaviour, that is what they prefer. I have downgraded a few of snakes over the time and successfully get them feeding again.

I had a beautiful yellow intergrade - about 4-5ft long - quite and inquisitive fellow, thought he'd like to upgrade from his 3ft tank to a 4x2x2.5H tank. He pinned himself in the corner behind the thickest hiding spot and would not come out to eat. Wouldn't come out to go his warm spot and if I bothered him he got stressed and couldn't wait to get back to his hiding spot. Moving him into that tank ruined him. I downgraded him back to his old enclosure which eventually got him eating again but he would never come out anymore. He saw anyone and went off, quickly, to his hide box.

Similar situation with my 2yr old bredli's. So don't think large enclosures are ALL that necessary because they aren't. Use your brain and watch your own snakes behaviour. THEY are the ones who can tell you if they're happy or not.

 

[Ramsayi]

Why do some people seem to think that it's all about not keeping reptiles in tubs? It is much much more than that and to zero in on the use or not of tubs is taking a very narrow minded,naive point of view on the matter.

 

[Chris1]

so the people so opposed to this, are you talking only about snakes not needing room to move, or lizards as well?

 

[Ramsayi]

so the people so opposed to this, are you talking only about snakes not needing room to move, or lizards as well?

It's the entire proposal,lizards included.
Thing is if they legislate then they can run a tape over your enclosure and if it's short by even a cm then you are breaking the law,regardless of the length of the reptile occupying that enclosure.As an example my line of bhp's do not grow as large as a lot of other lines,but bad luck one size fits all.

If you don't keep water bowls in enclosures all the time,you are breaking the law.I only offer water to my desert species twice a week therefore I would be breaking the law,forget the fact that reptiles will not drink from a bowl that has had water in it for more than a day or two.Keep stale water in the enclosure that the occupants will not drink,fine,according to the powers that be,not a problem.

I should add that all of my enclosures will comply with the proposal but that's hardly the point.The fact that some nuffy who in all likely hood wouldn't know his you know what from his elbow could come in and tell me how I should be keeping my collection is beyond a joke.