Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum

Help Support Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Beautifully said Saratoga. It is also what the Federal Environmental Conservation Act (the EPBC) says, and the Kakadu Plan of Management. This means that the Government agrees with you too!

Slickturtle

Isn't it nice! Lets hope that the Government agrees more and faster.
 
So while we're trying to save this snake (which may or may not be at risk), who's gonna look after the Gove Crow butterfly? Which is Nationally listed as an endangered species. Not Like this snake, which is only listed as vulnerable in the NT.

PS. Don't take me too seriously. :p

Hi Gordo

The Gove Crow is not so rare. Parks and Wildlife were recently taken to a place in NE Almondland where they are as common as armpits. They might be taken off the Threatened Species list.

With your comments in red you have not included a reason why a captive breeding colony of OP's should not be established? Have you heard of the Precautionary Principle as it is used in the EPBC and the Kakadu Plan of Management?

Over to you ......

Slickturtle

Hi Jeff

There is no reason that the two don't overlap totally. The people trying to get this sp. into captivity hope to achieve both - and why not. Everybody benefits in the end - even the Oenpelli Python.

In fact, the more people who have them the better the conservation outcome. This is because you will get a better spread of genetic attributes in a bigger captive population, less risk of captive animals being knocked out by a building fire or a disease and more stock to carry out a reintroduction program if ever the adverse environmental element that is squeezing them is fixed.

Cheers

Slickturtle

Good.
then all those adamant about this future wellbeing of this unique species say I.

All the rest that want the species in captivity for your personal gain say NI.

There, I said it..
 
Last edited:
See your point, but will take along time for these guys to become available to the general herp maket.
From my understanding(correct me if I am wrong), these guys stress alot and are not for the average tom, Dick and Harry (including myself). First things first, get these guys into a breeding program and down the track once these guys have a sustainable back up population and recreational keepers have and want to adjust to these requirements then go ahead.

One step at a time.
 
See your point, but will take along time for these guys to become available to the general herp maket.
From my understanding(correct me if I am wrong), these guys stress alot and are not for the average tom, Dick and Harry (including myself). First things first, get these guys into a breeding program and down the track once these guys have a sustainable back up population and recreational keepers have and want to adjust to these requirements then go ahead.

One step at a time.

I don't think enough is known about them to make broad statements like that - there hasn't been enough in captivity to generalise. And captive-bred stuff is almost universally more stable in captivity than wild-caught animals. John Weigel had probs with his w/c Roughies, but look at them now, after just a few years...

Jamie
 
I don't think enough is known about them to make broad statements like that - there hasn't been enough in captivity to generalise. And captive-bred stuff is almost universally more stable in captivity than wild-caught animals. John Weigel had probs with his w/c Roughies, but look at them now, after just a few years...

Jamie

So what do you sugest? Give them to anyone and hope, prey that certain idividuals (reputable known in the industry) are wrong and that these guys can and will have a great life with Tom, Dick and Harry after little experience? They need a proper programme in place to observe their natural wellbeing, captivity lifestyle and possible gain captive enviroments .
(patience)

I am not saying these guys should be unavailable in years to come, we just need to learn more about the lifestyle patterns and set up a breeding programme to support the wellbeing and continued existance of the species.
WHATS THE PROBLEM?
 
Hi Gordo

The Gove Crow is not so rare. Parks and Wildlife were recently taken to a place in NE Almondland where they are as common as armpits. They might be taken off the Threatened Species list.

With your comments in red you have not included a reason why a captive breeding colony of OP's should not be established? Have you heard of the Precautionary Principle as it is used in the EPBC and the Kakadu Plan of Management?

Over to you ......

Slickturtle

Wonderful to see you here again Greg!

There is nothing wrong with wanting them in captivity! And i would love to see anybody who wants to own them to have that opportunity, from legal captive bred stock. I am personally indifferent about owning them, but i don't see why other people shouldn't be allowed to.

That is good news about the Gove Crow. Almost lends support to my idea that we know a whole lot of nothing when it comes to cryptic animals in remote locations and we need to invest some time and effort into the field. It's unfortunate that the wildlife authorities don't seem to agree and appear to be blocking these efforts!

So what do you sugest? Give them to anyone and hope, prey that certain idividuals (reputable known in the industry) are wrong and that these guys can and will have a great life with Tom, Dick and Harry after little experience? They need a proper programme in place to observe their natural wellbeing, captivity lifestyle and possible gain captive enviroments .
(patience)

I am not saying these guys should be unavailable in years to come, we just need to learn more about the lifestyle patterns and set up a breeding programme to support the wellbeing and continued existance of the species.
WHATS THE PROBLEM?

Be careful, you are speaking to escarpment country royalty here! Greg has only kept 3 or 4 drop bears amongst everything else, i think he is in a relatively uniqe position to say we don't know that they will be that difficult.

Sorry Jeffa, it appears i was reading the wrong user names. Jamie isn't royalty, in these parts anyway!
 
Last edited:
We had a chat with Peter K. just last week and he said, if was to give an advice, it would be " don't fuss about them too much, treat them just like any other python". But we agreed that the location of the breeding facility should be of some consideration. Just because John W. successfully bred RSPs in Gosford, doesn't mean that such "exotic" location would be ideal for OPs.
 
So what do you sugest? Give them to anyone and hope, prey that certain idividuals (reputable known in the industry) are wrong and that these guys can and will have a great life with Tom, Dick and Harry after little experience? They need a proper programme in place to observe their natural wellbeing, captivity lifestyle and possible gain captive enviroments .
(patience)

I am not saying these guys should be unavailable in years to come, we just need to learn more about the lifestyle patterns and set up a breeding programme to support the wellbeing and continued existance of the species.
WHATS THE PROBLEM?

Who said there's a problem? Not me. I know nothing of the species except that it has had a dismal track record in captivity. The MAJOR reason for this was the removal of the animals from the care of Peter Krauss, who "owned" them and therefore gave them the best attention someone of his experience could, and their placement into a government facility, where nobody "owns" them, and therefore nobody has ultimate responsibilty for them.

The reason for this dismal track record may not be because the species is any more difficult that any other, it may just be because the animals were removed from the care of an expert who actually bred them, and placed into a facility where expertise and/or decision-making were obviously lacking. It's not the first instance of bureaucratic bungling, and it won't be the last.

By the way - where did I say that Oenpellis (at least the first cabs off the rank) could go to any "Tom, Dick or Harry?" Never suggested it, never would...

Jamie

We had a chat with Peter K. just last week and he said, if was to give an advice, it would be " don't fuss about them too much, treat them just like any other python". But we agreed that the location of the breeding facility should be of some consideration. Just because John W. successfully bred RSPs in Gosford, doesn't mean that such "exotic" location would be ideal for OPs.

I doubt that location is too critical, but I wasn't suggesting that they go to Gosford either. There are lots of GTP breeders who do good work in northern Europe, and even Alaska, and it seems that with an understanding of the environmental needs of a species, it can be bred almost anywhere. I'm with PK in the belief that they may not be as "difficult" as experience suggests, if only because the sample size we've had so far is too small to make an objective assessment.

Jamie
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lets face it, all the Toms Dicks and Harrys will have to wait a long, long time to even have a sniff of these pythons. First, permits must be issued, 2/ the animals (pairs that is) have to be located and collected, 3/ they may have to reach sexual maturity if not mature already, 4/ successful breeding, incubation, neonate feeding, etc., 5/ this CB generation has to mature and breed 5/ step 4 repeated, 5/ the progeny will be spit into two independent populations as a security measure, 6/ Tom, Dick and Harry will have their hair dyed because they won't look too flash grey.
 
About keeping OP's.

I have only kept a few and found them easy provided you had the right food. (But I agree that not everybody can walk outside and blow a few flying foxes out of a tree to feed them.) But this is typical of wild caught animals. It would not take long to switch them over to normal food. As for comparing them to Scrubbies - I have worked with lots of scrubbies (unpredictable and bad tempered - a lot of them - in my view) but i never had an OP attempt to bite even when newly caught and being force handled as in the photo. I reckon they are gentle giants. I wonder if PK found that as well?


 

Attachments

  • greg &oenpellisml.JPG
    greg &oenpellisml.JPG
    143.9 KB · Views: 380
We all want what we can't have.

I can't speak for everyone else, but this statement always irks me. There's a difference between 'wanting what you can't have' and getting enjoyment out of something despite the fact you can't own it. Personally I don't care if I can't own one, I'm pretty relaxed about it actually, I'd love a boelen's python and a retic and an anaconda but I can't own those either. I also love lions and tigers, and ocelots make me utterly drool (can't stand house cats though, go figure...), but I'd never ever dream of taking one out of the wild.
Given the opportunity, yes, I would love to own an OP. They're beautiful, I love the subtle markings, and apparently they have gorgeous natures. Unfortunately I can't own one, and I wouldn't dream of it until enough research has been done to ensure I'm giving it the proper care. Given the conflicting nature of arguments based around their care, I'd say that won't happen for a long long time. Until then I'll just stroke my little childreni and dream that it's a lot bigger than it is ;)
Totally just had a 'grow up' moment with the last sentence there, hem hem...
 
I'd be happy just to see one in the flesh even if it's in a prefessional establishment like a zoo. Seeing one out in the wild would just be phenomenal, then again being a Victorian seeing any python in the wild is phenomenal.
 
That is a beautifully worded post Nighthawk. An excellent post IMO. It is Snow Leopards that do it for me - like this one I took through the wire at Melbourne Zoo. I Should I apologise for putting a mere mammal on this forum?!
View attachment 216159

Cheers

Slick
I can't speak for everyone else, but this statement always irks me. There's a difference between 'wanting what you can't have' and getting enjoyment out of something despite the fact you can't own it. Personally I don't care if I can't own one, I'm pretty relaxed about it actually, I'd love a boelen's python and a retic and an anaconda but I can't own those either. I also love lions and tigers, and ocelots make me utterly drool (can't stand house cats though, go figure...), but I'd never ever dream of taking one out of the wild.
Given the opportunity, yes, I would love to own an OP. They're beautiful, I love the subtle markings, and apparently they have gorgeous natures. Unfortunately I can't own one, and I wouldn't dream of it until enough research has been done to ensure I'm giving it the proper care. Given the conflicting nature of arguments based around their care, I'd say that won't happen for a long long time. Until then I'll just stroke my little childreni and dream that it's a lot bigger than it is ;)
Totally just had a 'grow up' moment with the last sentence there, hem hem...
 
It will have to be me then, I can supply the bats. As long as the rest of the wildlife rehab group don't cotton on.
 
In the famous words of Greg Miles "I used to think captive breeding of endangered animals wasnt a conservation plan but an extinction prevention plan, then I realised my definition of conservation was wrong."

I am all for the keeping of this species in captivity because;

A-it wont cause wild populations any harm

and

B-they are a little bit novel

But keeping this species in captivity will only serve to stop them from going extinct, it will not do anything for conserving the species in any wild sense.
 
Awesome photo Slick. They look like they would be very quick should the need arise. How recent is that photo?
I Recall a similar photo only with a big Mulga.
 
I reckon they are gentle giants. I wonder if PK found that as well?


A friend was able to see and handle PK's OP's and told me they were exactly that. Big and tame.
Whether i ever owned them or not, i would absolutely love to see at least someone keeping them.
 
I reckon they are gentle giants. I wonder if PK found that as well?


A friend was able to see and handle PK's OP's and told me they were exactly that. Big and tame.
Whether i ever owned them or not, i would absolutely love to see at least someone keeping them.

All this talk about Peter's being tame, and no fuss required??????????????????????? Perhaps you guys are talking about different animals to the O.P's that were flighty, finiky feeders that Peter spent many many hours with trying to get them settled and than established????????????????????????????????????????

If they were so easy to maintain and breed, don't you think that Peter (and the other European Keepers) would have had them established within a year or two?????????? There is a reason why O.P's never took off in captivity. Peter's limited sucess with these animals was over 20+ years ago. Do you not think that someone would have bred them by now on a regular basis if they were a no fuss animal?

In regards to keeping them legally...............................For me it would be a case of the seller / Government department naming their price. I would pay anything for a chance to own these snakes.

Prestige......Not likely as I would not want anyone to know I had them. It is about grass roots reptile keeping where you keep, study and try to breed a species that you find amazing.

The very reason why I am facinated by the now dirt cheap M. carinata. I was lucky enough to be given a few from John and I will never ever sell them as to me, they are the next best thing to owing an O.P.

A few years ago I maintained one of the best collections of reptiles in Australia worth well over a hundred thousand dollars. I can tell you now that I have never enjoyed keeping herps more than I do today with a tiny collection of pygmy monitors,the odd python, a few rough knobbies and a few blue tongues.

Forget about the dollars involved with O.P's (or any species for that matter), it is about keeping & trying to breed one of the worlds most unique python species.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top