Quick drive and ID

[waruikazi]

Went for my normal quick burn last night. Not alot out, which is typical of this weather at this time of year.

There were two areas that had been freshly burnt off by the ringers yesterday and i found these three moving from the burnt side of the road to the fresh side. Interestingly both the burtons came from the exact same spots that i've found them in before. They usually don't come out until we start getting regular rain.

First burtons.

Second

And a Delma, i can't put a positive ID on it. I'm going with either D. borea or tincta. Any thoughts? Came out of scrub between escarpment and a floodplain.

And a black whip from Saturday.

 

[Eddie2257]

it looks like a scaly foot.

 

[waruikazi]

Scaly foots are a genus not a species and the wrong genus at that lol. It is definately a Delma. But thanks for replying.

it looks like a scaly foot.

 

[Rocket]

Based on those photos, it would be almost impossible to tell the species. Did you count the mid-body scale rows around the girth?

 

[GeckPhotographer]

It's not D.borea they retain the head patterning their whole life apparently. D.tincta the head markings can fade with age so I'd go with that....

(I don't actually have any first person experience with these species.)

 

[waruikazi]

Based on those photos, it would be almost impossible to tell the species. Did you count the mid-body scale rows around the girth?

Nah there was a car behind me so i was in a bit of a rush to get off the road. Didn't even manage to turn my camera onto the right settings, hence the gammon pictures.

 

[gus11]

I would say its not a tincta, although the markings may fade doesn't look at all like a tincta to me

 

[Rocket]

Fair enough. Widespread species such as D.tincta are obviously a species complex. Did it have any retained (even if severely faded) head patterning or was it uniform in colouration and patterning? I can't really tell due to the flash...

 

[GeckPhotographer]

uniform in colouration and patterning? I can't really tell due to the flash...

Looks uniform to me, even taking into account flash.

 

[waruikazi]

That was my torch light not a flash lol.

No it didn't have any banding that you could make out at all across it's neck.

Fair enough. Widespread species such as D.tincta are obviously a species complex. Did it have any retained (even if severely faded) head patterning or was it uniform in colouration and patterning? I can't really tell due to the flash...

 

[GeckPhotographer]

No it didn't have any banding that you could make out at all across it's neck.

Then seeing as a key identifying characteristic (According to Wilson and Swan) of Delma borea is the banding, in my absent experience with these first hand, I think it must be D.tincta.

By the way Rocket not trying to critisice you but you say "obviously must be a new species", it may be true in some cases but one only has too look at N.milli which is genetically the same East Coast to west coast, I mean sure N.seorsus just got described but N.milli still has a big distribution.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Dema tincta.

Eddie2257, it does look like a scaly-foot at first glance but when you look more closely there are a few evident differences. The hind-limb flap is not clearly obvious, the ear opening is not obvious, the body and tail is long and slender,whereas the scaly-foot is more robust (with a much shorter tail) and if you look carefully, the scales on the back are smooth and not slightly keeled.

Rocket, midbody scale counts can overlap for these two species so may not be definitive. Scales on top of the head would be more useful or both together.

Blue

 

[richoman_3]

very nice finds and pics!!!
cant wait till im older to get out of melbourne

 

[waruikazi]

Blue, how did you come to that decision?

Dema tincta.

Eddie2257, it does look like a scaly-foot at first glance but when you look more closely there are a few evident differences. The hind-limb flap is not clearly obvious, the ear opening is not obvious, the body and tail is long and slender,whereas the scaly-foot is more robust (with a much shorter tail) and if you look carefully, the scales on the back are smooth and not slightly keeled.

Rocket, midbody scale counts can overlap for these two species so may not be definitive. Scales on top of the head would be more useful or both together.

Blue

 

[Rocket]

I never claimed that the scale count would be a definitive diagnostic tool, it was a simple question. Third edition Wilson and Swan mentions D.borea having 16 scale rows whilst D.tincta have 14... mind you, they do regard that as a "usual" feature of the species.

Excuse my sweeping generalisation GeckPhotographer. I'm not saying it isn't Delma tincta, sure, it probably is, they're a variable species across their range in patterning and colouration, as well as habitat and niche selection. Basically, work needs to be done on them at a genetic level (as needs to occur on many species) if identification is to be certain.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Warzuikazi, as a generalisation, Delma borea from the NT, particularly the north, tend to retain distinct head markings as adults. It’s not till you get to the southerly populations in the semi-arid zone that the markings tend to fade, still leaving a faint indication. On the other hand, with D. tincta,as they age the head and neck tend to become the same colour as the back.

Rocket, I apologize if I seemed abrupt and dismissive of your statement. Such was definitely not my intention. What I should have said was that the midbody scale counts can often be used for a positive ID [D. borea 15-18, mostly 16; D.tincta 13 to 16, usually 14] but to be on the safe side head scales should be included.

Blue

 

[waruikazi]

Cheers mate.