Hypothetical- Question about responsibility

[JS974]

The point of this thread is to get people to be careful, (and maybe to make the seller a little uncomfortable). It's better not to name names when I'm never going to get a 100% positive result on point of infection, even if ALL the signs to seem to point somewhere.

I've spoke to the breeder who flat out denies he's ever had an issue but at the end of the day - obviously I'm sceptical because when everything looks a certain way from an evidence perspective and someone has money at stake I find people aren't always 100% honest.

At the end of the day this sucks and I hope no one else needs to go through this - even though it will certainly happen again - so be very careful with anything you bring into your collection.

 

[Retic]

I understand what you're saying and I understand we all need to be careful but it's hard to be aware of a particular breeder if 'we' aren't made aware of who they are.

 

[miss2]

you said this person had a good reputation?

sorry this has happened to you. has the seller been reasonable at all?

 

[JS974]

you said this person had a good reputation?

sorry this has happened to you. has the seller been reasonable at all?

No not at all.

Also guys I can't answer any questions on who the seller is - as the seller pointed out I have no definitive way to establish that's where the problem originated (even if all the signs point that way).

So to stop the onslaught of questions, please don't be offended if you PM me asking for details of the seller if I don't reply.

 

[Herpaderpa]

Hey, I don't mean this in a combative way... because I really truly do feel for your position... but what would you like the seller to do?

A replacement offer is more than most will make and I think is reasonable. If you had followed a reasonable quarantine process then none of your other animals would be infected right now so I don't think you can blame that on the seller. The seller should be open to discussion however, but it does depend on how you approached it as well. If you expect compensation for the animals you will likely lose due to not quarantining new animals however... well that is not reasonable.

 

[olivehydra]

I feel if I did that my comment would be moderated in record time.

Sorry for your loss. Your comment suggests (to me) that a sponsor could be the other party....I would hate to be one of the other sponsors.

 

[JS974]

Hey, I don't mean this in a combative way... because I really truly do feel for your position... but what would you like the seller to do?

A replacement offer is more than most will make and I think is reasonable. If you had followed a reasonable quarantine process then none of your other animals would be infected right now so I don't think you can blame that on the seller. The seller should be open to discussion however, but it does depend on how you approached it as well. If you expect compensation for the animals you will likely lose due to not quarantining new animals however... well that is not reasonable.

Q: but what would you like the seller to do?
Nothing - the orginal snakes cost me very little money ($180 I think) and I wouldn't want anything else from his collection or money back, which was why I knocked back is offer of jag sibs as a replacment.

"If you had followed a reasonable quarantine process then none of your other animals would be infected right now so I don't think you can blame that on the seller"
I agree, which is what I've said the entire way through this thread - this is as much about getting people to be careful about what the bring in as much as it is about anything else - which is why there is no names attached.

Sorry for your loss. Your comment suggests (to me) that a sponsor could be the other party....I would hate to be one of the other sponsors.

that is not the case, it is not a sponsor

 

[Chris1]

really sorry to hear about this,....what a devastating thing to happen.

and while this is of no help to you, im very interested to know the time frame in which your other animals have become infected and started showing symptoms? (would be good to know what an actual decent quarantine period is,....) 6 months? 18 months?

ill be honest, since getting my first few snakes i became very careful to only buy from people i trust, therefore ever really bothered with quarantine,....this could have happened to me or anyone who believes their source is trustworthy! (its been over a year since my last arrival,..am i safe?)

if nothing else, hopefully alot of people (including myself) will learn from your bad luck and quarantine new animals regardless of who they purchase tehm from.

i really hope you dont have to get half ur collection euthed,...

 

[Renenet]

ill be honest, since getting my first few snakes i became very careful to only buy from people i trust, therefore ever really bothered with quarantine,....this could have happened to me or anyone who believes their source is trustworthy! (its been over a year since my last arrival,..am i safe?

I was like you, Chris. I thought it was okay not to bother with quarantine if you bought them from a reputable breeder. Having done a lot of research since, I've changed my opinion completely. I plan to quarantine for 12 months, especially because I want to breed in the future and I don't want to put other people's collections in jeopardy when I sell the offspring.

I understand 12 months is a decent quarantine period. But with some diseases like OPMV, we don't know what the incubation period is. It could be even longer than that. I'm not sure what the answer is there.

 

[mysnakesau]

Hypothetical Question: Say you bought three pythons from one place (and they never eaten properly, in the very short time you'd had them - just background info) and they where first things you had ever owned to show any signs of sickness (rapidly spreading disease), do you think it's a fair a reasonable assumption to make that they originated from a collection that may have an issue with disease, would you expect the seller to show some kind of responsibility?

Just interested on other peoples thoughts.

I believe both buyer and seller should take responsibility. It is nobody's fault that diseases exist but there are measures you can take to prevent spread of diseases. Quarantining is the buyers protection against spreading diseases to your existing collections. Snakes really need to be quarantined for at least 12 months to be certain that the likes of OPMV and that other one, aren't incubating.

Should issues arise from animals you have purchased yes you should inform the seller so that he can look into his own quarters to find any issues and treat it. Whether or not they offer some compensation for the stock he sold you, is a matter that should be discussed with the seller. Publically pointing fingers does not resolve problems.

Some diseases can remain undercover and go un-noticed while others are very obvious. So discuss things with the seller.

 

[Red-Ink]

Hey, I don't mean this in a combative way... because I really truly do feel for your position... but what would you like the seller to do?

A replacement offer is more than most will make and I think is reasonable. If you had followed a reasonable quarantine process then none of your other animals would be infected right now so I don't think you can blame that on the seller. The seller should be open to discussion however, but it does depend on how you approached it as well. If you expect compensation for the animals you will likely lose due to not quarantining new animals however... well that is not reasonable.

This goes beyond (way beyond) the simple issue of compensation if OPMV is on the cards..... It may not be just the OPs collection at risk as if it does spread into other collections hundreds of animals may have to be euthed.

 

[JS974]

Publically pointing fingers does not resolve problems.

[FONT=&amp]
I agree, which is why this is an educational thread with no names attached and no hostility (which is more than reasonable on my behalf given how I could have reacted to the whole situation)

As I've said a fews time before now I hope someone learns from what happened and doesn't make the same mistake I did and that everyone is careful with everything they bring in - as this could potentially be a huge issue if it got into any big collection with large sales of snakes to other keepers.[/FONT]

 

[RHCP1]

as stated OPMV cannot be tested for in Australia. I'm told that a university Texas USA can test a blood sample. I guess it would have to be done via a pathology lad in Aust.

 

[tsbjd]

symptoms point to early OPMV - is it possible to get an exact description of symptoms. I know there was an extremely bad type of ?RI? around last year, which had a high mortality rate, i even think there was an origin of it discussed. It was apparently very easily spread, and in speaking to a vet and some case studies, ended up a mixture of drugs to combat.

 

[JS974]

I'll try and answer this in some detail once I get home.

 

[Retic]

There are lots of places that can test for it, a company in the UK can do it from an oral or cloacal swab but I think the issue would be getting the sample legally out of this country and into the UK or indeed anywhere. It is a very cheap test but unfortunately for whatever reason not available to us here.

as stated OPMV cannot be tested for in Australia. I'm told that a university Texas USA can test a blood sample. I guess it would have to be done via a pathology lad in Aust.

 

[Darlyn]

Does anyone know why we can't do it here?
Surely someone could be trained to do it? Or is it lack of interest?

 

[mysnakesau]

......
Disregarding the fact that it may or may not be OPMV or something similar would it be unreasonable to expect the name of the person concerned to be made available ?

I quite agree with this statement. While they are some who would hide having a serious disease, I am sure the majority wouldn't. But if it does happen to be passed on, it isn't anybody's fault. Its a virus that nobody has control over. How do you know that it only enters a collection through introduction of an infected animal? How do you know that you don't bring it in from visiting someone else's collection. My point is, to name and blame someone else for your animals getting sick is unreasonable. Quarantine new animals so you can isolate problems if they arise. If you don't quarantine, you only have yourself to blame for disease spread. In saying this, it should be a signal to the seller, to quarantine his collection and not sell anymore, until he is sure his snakes are in the clear. Nobody wants to admit being infected with such fatal diseases, but to act cautiously would be a very reasonable response from them. Don't just presume it was the last person you bought snakes from either. Consider everyone you have bought snakes from in the last two years. From what I have read OPMV and Body Inclusion Disease can incubate for up to 12-18months, and as already suggested, who knows it can't incubate for longer periods. Carriers of the disease can live their whole life and not show any ill effect of the disease, but very able to spread it round.

 

[JS974]

Look clearly this is going to turn into a slanging match which is not what I intended at all.

I have people sending me all sorts of pm's and questioning my intent, telling me I'm and internet troll & best off all that I'm trying to "drive the price of jungles down"

My intentions where only ever good, but I can see now why no one talks publically about these things: I was only trying to make sure someone didn't go through the same issues I'm dealing with,

Clearly a lot of people are more worried about their potential profits for the year than they are of the public sharing of information - I have nothing to sell now this year,and nothing to benefit from posting this, quite the opposite infact, I know posting this will have a massive effect on my ability to sell anything in years to come & I want nothing from the seller. keep in mind I haven't even discussed the emotional investment I have in some of these animals.

Heres a pic of a couple of weeks worth of treatment (which probably won't work anyway) http://i40.tinypic.com/66vj2o.jpg (just to give the thread a little legitimacy) and given even the vet agrees that the source of infection was the jungles I don't think I need to justify anything else to anyone.

To answer the other question, it shows signs of being like a really bad ri infection (mucus and wheezing especially), with pronounced nero issue in the jungles especially, star gazing, gasping, muscle loss, weight loss (refusal of food obviously) and the back end issues associated with opmv, looks to be airborne and has a high and fast infection rate.

I hope someone learns something from this and it doesn't happen to them.

I'm hoping these injections work but I hold little to no hope in that being the case.

JS

 

[Renenet]

Your poor snakes. I really hope the second half of your collection remains disease free.