Multiple GTP Species?

[zack13]

I just read an article by Rawlings and Donnelan from 2002 on Phylogeographic analysis of the green tree python. I was wondering if anyone else had read it and what they thought about it.
If you haven't read it and would like to here is the link
http://www.reptilehobbyist.com/aho/pdf/menu2/rawlings2003.pdf

Zack

 

[longqi]

It has lots of big words in it but is generally inconclusive in its summation because of the low number of samples

I do know that there is definite talk of splitting Chondros into 3 separate subspecies
But with vast areas of Papua and PNG still virtually unexplored even that may be jumping the gun a little bit
because there could be a lot more information available within a fairly short period of time

ex. the Lake Kubutu type is very new and pretty different

 

[DanN]

Hi Zack,

Rawlings and Donnellan (2003) found that green pythons occupying ranges north and south of New Guinea's central mountain range were genetically highly divergent. This same phenomenon is seen in a large number of other New Guinean vertebrate taxa, and specifically in other pythons (see Schleip 2008 for Leiopythons and Harvey et al. for scrub pythons).

Rawlings and Donnellan were reluctant to describe the new species because as Longqi has said, their sampling at the edge of the mountains, near where the two genetically distinct forms might meet, did not allow accurate determination of the species boundaries and information was not available regarding possible hybridisation.

Longqi, personally I think that the green python forms are worthy of recognition as full species. I also do not believe that further sampling in remote areas is needed to discover even more forms of GTP. The M. viridis vouchers in museums around the globe represent a thorough sample of even the most remote areas of New Guinea - even from Lake Kutubu - which unfortunately is just your plain old M. viridis ; ).

 

[longqi]

Cool Dan
But exactly which forms will they break them down into?
For example the build and colour of Misools and Kofiaus is pretty different to most others as well
Although the size could be attributed to them being an island population??
But then again the larger Biak is also an island form with very marked differences to most mainland types

If they do just go for basically North and South where would Sorongs fit for example as they could only be classified as West??

Shame about the Kubutus
They looked interesting to say the least

 

[DanN]

Hi Longqi,

I suspect the two forms (north and south) will be formally described. I'd imagine Biak would be split off for the reasons you say. And the last may possible be the group inhabiting Morobe and Milne Bay provinces in far eastern PNG.

Misools and Kofiau are very unlikely to be distinct, and show little variation apart from colour. The Vogelkop Peninsula is a strange one. Very little going on over there.

 

[longqi]

I ran a Tuna boat out of Milne Bay years ago
Saw my first GTPS there
But have never heard of any since in private collections or zoos

Good to know they still exist

 

[zack13]

They could separate them into north and south Longqi and then possibly break the others down into sub-species of the then two different species.
So would the north revert to Morelia Azureus while the south remain Morelia Viridis?

 

[Waterrat]

Subspecies? God forbid! Who needs that (apart form the one not be named)?

 

[zack13]

Subspecies? God forbid! Who needs that (apart form the one not be named)?

So what is your opinion on this matter Waterrat? Do you think the north and south should be separated into two different species?

 

[Waterrat]

I think Dan's view is the most accurate. He has done a lot of work there while my opinion would be based on published lit, which may be quite outdated now.

 

[DanN]

Hi Zack,

What each species is named will depend on what species are described... I know that sounds confusing but...

Because the type locality (the area from where the first snake named was collected) for the southern form is from the Aru Islands and the northern form from Biak, the two names will be used for the southern and northern forms, respectively. However, if there was evidence to split the Aru Island or Biak Island forms from the others, then new names would apply.

By example, if it was found that Biak GTPs were their own species, and Aru GTPs were also, then their names would be Morelia azurea and Morelia viridis, respectively. This would mean that if the northern and southern mainland forms were also split from one another; they would require completely new names (or be named after any previously known synonym from a respective mainland locality).

Confusing as hell when they’re all really just little green snakes, but that’s taxonomy

 

[zack13]

Hi Zack,

What each species is named will depend on what species are described... I know that sounds confusing but...

Because the type locality (the area from where the first snake named was collected) for the southern form is from the Aru Islands and the northern form from Biak, the two names will be used for the southern and northern forms, respectively. However, if there was evidence to split the Aru Island or Biak Island forms from the others, then new names would apply.

By example, if it was found that Biak GTPs were their own species, and Aru GTPs were also, then their names would be Morelia azurea and Morelia viridis, respectively. This would mean that if the northern and southern mainland forms were also split from one another; they would require completely new names (or be named after any previously known synonym from a respective mainland locality).

Confusing as hell when they’re all really just little green snakes, but that’s taxonomy

Thanks for that Dan, it is a bit confusing but I get it. Either way I find it extremely interesting and can't wait for the outcome.

 

[longqi]

Its really interesting to look at photos of chondros being advertised a Pure locale

Mite phase Biaks etc?
Blue sided Meraukes?
Cyclops without the teardrops?
This continual mixing and matching is slowly destroying them

 

[DanN]

Its really interesting to look at photos of chondros being advertised a Pure locale

Mite phase Biaks etc?
Blue sided Meraukes?
Cyclops without the teardrops?
This continual mixing and matching is slowly destroying them

Hi Longqi,

Interestingly, each of the GTPs you describe above do occur naturally, although they are exceptions to the norm. If the advertisements you are referring to are in Indonesia then it could be highly possible that they are pure.

 

[Owzi]

DanN, when will you be publishing anything regarding your work with GTPs? I certainly look forward to reading it. Will you be addressing this very issue of separate species?
Andrew

 

[DanN]

DanN, when will you be publishing anything regarding your work with GTPs? I certainly look forward to reading it. Will you be addressing this very issue of separate species?
Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Here are a couple;

ScienceDirect - Biological Conservation : Wildlife laundering through breeding farms: Illegal harvest, population declines and a means of regulating the trade of green pythons (Morelia viridis) from Indonesia

and

CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australian Journal of Zoology

I am slowly working on the species stuff - just need to do the genetic work.

 

[zack13]

Hi Andrew,

Here are a couple;

ScienceDirect - Biological Conservation : Wildlife laundering through breeding farms: Illegal harvest, population declines and a means of regulating the trade of green pythons (Morelia viridis) from Indonesia

and

CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australian Journal of Zoology

I am slowly working on the species stuff - just need to do the genetic work.

That is so cool Dan. If you don't mind my asking how is it you were able to work on this stuff?

 

[DanN]

That is so cool Dan. If you don't mind my asking how is it you were able to work on this stuff?

Hi Zack - not at all. I was able to study it because I chose to This is what I decided to work on at University as part of my postgraduate studies.

 

[andyh]

Subspecies? God forbid! Who needs that (apart form the one not be named)?

Voldemort??

 

[waruikazi]

I dunno about all this species and sub-species bizzo. Splitters and lumpers... If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and performs the same ecological role as a duck... Then they all must be chondros!

I'm reminded of mulgas right now. I think there are 4 or 5 distinct lineages, probably more different than all the localities of greens yet they are still lumped into the single species.