Shingleback weakness

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PeppersGirl

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Our two shinglebacks appear to have a problem but it's been months and we still can't figure it out! Usually what happens is, (referring to the female that has done it twice, but the male also came down with the same thing) she'll lose her appetite, start writhing and struggling around her enclosure before weakening to the point of being unable to walk at all. In the space of 2-3 weeks she'll be back to normal once more :? but needless to say it scares us.

She and the male live in a 4x2x2 enclosure with breeder's choice substrate, UV and heat lights and an overnight heat emitter. The daytime temperature varies this time of year, usually between 35-40 since we turned it up after her first 'episode' back in April. They are fed on calcium dusted minced chicken frame with fresh greens and vegetables, and snails.

If anyone has ideas as to what this could be it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks :)
 
I'm wondering if the snails are definitely 100% ok, could they be poisoned prior to collection? I'm not sure how far snails travel but a neighbour could be poisoning them etc. Goodluck.
 
We did think of that, as far as we know there has been no connection with the collection site of the snails (we have three spots) and there is no snail bait laid. Unless it could be their specific diet?
 
The minced chicken frame, does that have any sort of bone or cartiledge in it?

Do you mean chicken mince with no actual bone?
 
I would try stopping the mince for a while and see how you go.

I sometimes soak dry dog food in water, dust it lightly, and mine eat that. I've even given them some tinned crickets or even live crickets that have been in the fridge for a while to "slow" them down. I don't have a set menu of food to offer. Kangaroo mince sometimes etc.

Any possibility of ingesting the substrate? I'm not sure what breeder's choice is.
 
The chicken mince has cartilage etc. but it is in very small pieces. The reason we don't feed kangaroo mince is it ALWAYS has preservatives and chemicals in it which would be far more unhealthy in the long run.
We will try without the chicken mince for a while then, the dog food sounds like a great idea :) (they never eat insects, it's like they're not worth the trouble when the lizard is so big haha)
Thanks for that

Breeder's choice is a kitty litter, we feed them in dishes or on a grass mat so it's not likely they've swallowed any
 
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I just googled "Breeder's choice", recycled paper stuff. I don't like the look of it. Might be just me but i'd get rid of it all and put down (I know it will look terrible) newspaper for now.

Mine are kept in a tank with desert sand atm, soon to go outside in an aviary. I know some sands can be bad but what are they kept on in the wild? I've had nil problems so far. I dearly hope I don't start a sand debate now....

I'm just firing off ideas, i'm really hoping you find out the problem.

I use a good quality dry dog food, the cheaper stuff is full of garbage. Soak it in water first, i'm not 100% but i've seen somewhere that dry dry can be bad.
 
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my bobby went off food and was even vomiting at one point. but i am 99% sure it was a heating issue. Since i cranked the heat he has never been better. But you seem to have the right temps already.
Mine used to eat fruit and veg and then one day i intruduced him to tinned dog meat. Now thats all he wants to eat :) so i mix his fruit, veg and powder into that.
My substrate is a 100% natural clay animal littler. Lots of people question me on its safety, but he has never eaten it as he eats off a plate. And honestly, my boy is so happy and healthy :) Keep posting your findings as i am very interested to see what happens to your little critters. Good luck with them. (had to post a picture of my JubJub. I love him to bits!) ;)

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Your attachment didn't work :( Try posting it in 'go advanced'? I want to see :)
I'd be more concerned about the 'junk' they add into tinned meat... but to each their own!
 
I doubt that the snails have anything to do with it. If you have any concerns that they may have ingested snail bait, feed them on leafy greens from your own garden for a couple of days. If none die in the meantime, they will be fine. I even know of someone who fed snails that had been eating oleander to their bluetongue with no adverse effects. I would not recommend it but it does indicate that the snails don’t store the toxins.

I have a mate who has raised and bred Shinglebacks on Breeder’s Choice, so I would be comfortable to eliminate that as a possible source of the problem. The signs you describe appear related to nervous system and muscular functioning. Given that all other environmental conditions are up to par, you need to look at the diet and its potential effects. If you are feeding your lizards a varied diet of the right stuff and they have access to UVB radiation when at their preferred body temperature, then they will be absorbing adequate calcium from their diet. Young, rapidly growing animals, have a higher need for calcium than adult or near adult sized lizards. Calcium additives should only be provided every second meal at the most for actively growing lizards and considerably less, if at all, for adults.

Apart from the obvious role in building and strengthening bones, calcium plays a critical role in most metabolic process in the bodies of vertebrates. Two other major roles are the transmission of nerve impulses and the contraction of muscle fibres. A continual excess of calcium in the blood can manifest itself in a number of ways, including abnormal conduction of nerve impulses and/or muscle contraction. Hence, this is a possible explanation for what is happening.

I can get access to a copy of a diet that has been successfully used for quite a few years in rehabilitating injured or sick shinglebacks for release back into the wild. If you want, I am happy to chase it up for you. The insect component of shingleback diets can be easily met using Wombaroo Insectivore Mix. In the wild their main source of meat is insects, such as caterpillars. You did not state the percentages of chicken versus greens or the nature of the greens you provide. Diet is important for maintain good health and while there are many different ways to go about it, you still need to get the basic components and their balance correct.

Blue
 
That's very helpful, thanks Blue :) The female is an adult, the male is now 2 years old - They are given the chicken mince and calcium (usually with finely chopped zucchini and sometimes carrot) once a week, and snails and greens twice. For greens we use dandelions, clover, bok choy, silver beet that they don't tend to like as much, and they also get apple, plus any fruit we might have around in small amounts (nectarine, apricot, cherries etc.)
It sounds as though that could well be the issue here, it makes perfect sense. Do you know if there can be any permanent damage done? We've only kept them for ten months so far.

It would be great if you could find the diet for me, strictly speaking we've never had much to go on in the way of exact requirements :D Thanks again!


StimiLove he is gorgeous! Love the colours :)
 
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Hi PeppersGirl,

This is the diet they feed to animals they are rehabilitating....

12% Meatballs with Wombaroo Reptile Supplement

22% Chopped apple
22% Green leafy vegetables
22% Banana
22% Tomato

As you can see it is predominately vegetarian which is what they eat in nature. A fellow name of Mike Bamford did his Ph. D. studies on Shinglebacks, which included collecting road kills to open up and do stomach contents assays on. From memory, he came up with about 15% animal protein and the rest vegetable matter.

There is information available on the net about the types of greens that are suitable and those that are not. The main ones that are not so good are spinach, silver beet and kale, as they reduce the ability to take up calcium, and iceberg lettuce because it contains too much water and not enough nutrients. Otherwise dark green salad vegies, including the “designer lettuce” leaves, and things like bok choy, rocket, dandelion leaves and flowers, are great. All vegies and hard fruits should be coarsely chopped. The distance between the eyes is the ideal size but no larger. Do not cut up finely as the lack of chewing can produce dental hygiene problems. You can vary the fruits from the given formula. For example, you could feed strawberries (another sweet fruit) instead of banana. Flowers, fruits and leaves of various native plants can also be given. For example, the flowers and leaves of native violets as part of the greens or Lilly Pilly fruits instead of the tomato.

Hope that helps.
Blue
 
Thank you very much for that :) It's interesting that they include Banana in such a large percentage - I thought that was one of the foods that should only be given in small amounts?
 
i was told my my breeder than ground up chicken carcasses are good and recommended,..so that wouldnt be a problem

i have a few snail collection sites too and have been told that agapanthas are toxic,...(where i find most of mine),..so i tub them and feed them for a month before my shingles get them.

studies on wild shinglebacks show they have a 93-7% veg to meat ratio, mine get mostly greens, protien (snails at this time of year, otherwise either the raw chicken carcasses or raw beef strips) maybe fortnightly,...

re other insects, they love roaches,...but its hard to teach tehm to grab and hold, when theyre learnign they keep letting the buggers go!!!
 
Haha we kept ending up with a second colony living in their box lid! (Which is why we've given up on the whole roach thing :p )

Also have an agapanthas collection site that we used to visit, and it never had an effect on the blue tongue - as Blue pointed out they probably don't store the toxins or else our Northern bluey would be dead.

The female shingleback weighed in at 940 grams last night, she's usually around 700g. Has her strength coming back but she's just being sleepy now :D
 
lol, youre looking at that the wrong way, its a free roach colony,..!! :)
(till you mind a mum giving birth in your underwear drawer,......) :p
 
It's all fun and games until you have a hatching in your bed covers :shock::p
 
Basically, if you look at the wild populations that have been researched you could say approximately 10% meat is a natural diet. I suspect that would be higher if they were more adept at catching prey.

I was a little surprised at the amount of banana but it was in combination with other fruits and veg. The diet is also designed to put condition on the animals prior to release back into the wild. As a maintenance diet I would suggest it is appropriate to cut back on the soft fruits and increase the veg portion.

In order to feed roaches to lizards that are less than adept at grabbing them, you have a couple of options. You can cool the roaches in the fridge and then clip the legs, usually on one side only, to reduce their mobility. Alternatively, place them in an appropriate shallow bowl with a coating of fluon around the inside top edge. Bonsai containers (with the holes blocked) are excellent because the sides slope inwards. You may get the occasinal roach that manages to climb out over a lizard but this will be minima. A section of egg carton with some raw carrot slices in it is most effective at attracting escaped individuals.

Blue
 
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