The great enclosure size debate!

[CentralianKing]

Sorry if this debates been done before but I find it hard searching for previous conversations when I only use my phone for Internet access these days and maybe it's a good time to restart the debate considering all the newbies the hobby and forum has gained over the past year.
I've been reading a few posts of late about people's choices and advice on "appropriate" enclosure dimensions and I've come to the conclusion that the general consensus is that the bigger the better? Be it a yearling or adult and the ever rising newbie who wants to house their new hatcho in a reptile mansion despite other people's suggestions.
I'm one of the few that believe the smaller the better, not for me but the pythons welfare. I'm not talking about housing a 3m olive in a 900x600x600 enclosure either.
I believe pythons are naturally secretive creatures who venture out to bask and gain the required heating, then return to privacy and cover their hides supply waiting for lights out to begin the nights search for prey!
I've found my pythons behave better, act more naturally, readily feed, slough perfectly and I have also never had a sick python. I've kept many species in my years of keeping such as bredli, black heads, womas, carpets, jungles, diamonds, spotteds and children's and found this true for all these species.
I recently cut my collection from 30 plus back to 2 bredli, I currently keep my bredli in 1200x600x600 enclosures which to some would be to small for 5 year old adult bredli, due to the recent cut back in python numbers they have only just moved into this size enclosure, they were previously kept in 900x600x600 enclosures for 3 years but now with the luxury of extra space I thought I would share some of this luxury with them, these enclosures are broken down by using 2 shelves which are the width of the enclosure and 400 deep, so while they are coiled up on a shelf they feel like they are actually in a 600x400x400 enclosure, this is due to there only being a 200mm gap between shelf and glass door, I think with this new style of enclosure these already placid pythons have become even better behaved pets!
So what's everyone's opinion on the subject and have I converted anyone to smaller is better?
At the end of the day it's "each to their own", I know what works for me and understand this style of keeping may not be for others.
Cheers

 

[Daryl_H]

yeah chickens do well in little cages when over feed they get to kfc in 8 weeks must be good for them!!!

 

[GeckoJosh]

Snakes do fine in small tubs but personally I think its good to give them a half decent amount of exercise room once they are 10 months + so they get a chance to use their muscles.

 

[Wally]

The days of keepers deciding what size enclosure is appropriate may be endangered.

 

[CaptainRatbag]

Display animals look nice in a fairly large, nicely presented enclosure. This makes the human owner happy. Breeders couldnt possibly have large enclosures for each snake.

The supposed 'best' for a snake is 2/3rds the length of the snake, but that is impossible if you have a couple of 3.5m pythons.

I personally think a python is happy if he has food, ventilation, the right temp, clean water, clean but not neccessarily sterile environment. As you said, a coiled up python doesnt take up much room. I think as long as the snake can hapilly move around, there is room for a hide or 2, shedding furniture etc, a small enclosure shouldnt stress an otherwise happy python.

I also cant see the other problem of people saying putting a snake in a large enclosure stresses them? I have a 4 month old MDP in a 450x300x350 enclosure, he went in it straight from a tupperware container.... he is happy, eats like a horse. My spotteds went from 600x300x300 (cohabitating) into a 1200x600x600 each.... both are happy and doing well. They all just check every square mm of the new enclosure for an escape route.... when they cant find a way out, they just pull up a branch and have a snooze

 

[CentralianKing]

Chickens, exercise??
I'll pass on the chickens but seriously exercise? When was the last time you seen a python at the gym? Just kidding, on a serious note mine get plenty of exercise moving from shelf to shelf and eating, is that not enough exercise for them?
CaptainRatbag the 2/3 rule applies to my enclosure as my pythons are both around the 1.8-2m mark, 2/3rds of this is 1200-1300mm, my enclosures being 1200 high are in these so called ideal measurements, yes when they were in the 900 highs it was only 1/2 their length but they had more the enough room then.
Is it ok to have small enclosures if your a breeder? I'm no breeder although I did get a clutch this year and don't plan on another for a few years, why should it be ok for breeders to house their pythons in small enclosures and not the average keeper? I know of albino olive breeders that house their adults in 1800x400x800 enclosures.
As for display enclosures making the owners happy I'm the son if a cabinet maker and he taught me his craft, my enclosures craftsmanship would put most people's enclosures on here to shame, I get no greater joy then cracking a cold one and sitting back looking at the enclosure I built for my pythons, you won't see no bland white melamine enclosures in my home, oh except for my hatchies rack if course
Thanks for the comments so far people!!

 

[Ramsayi]

I keep all my carpets separate,each in 1200x800x600h.Not all breeders keep their pythons in tubs.

 

[CentralianKing]

I keep all my carpets separate,each in 1200x800x600h.Not all breeders keep their pythons in tubs.

Would you keep a woma adult in that size enclosure? I plan on getting a Uluru soon as I miss owning them and I plan on putting it in a 1200x600x400 enclosure, when I had my trio before I kept them in this size except deeper, 800 rather then 600.

 

[CaptainRatbag]

Just to clarify, I dont suggest for an instant that breeders all keep pythons in tubs. What my point is, is that if a breeder has 30 adult snakes, unless he/she has an empty warehouse to keep 30 enclosures any size from 900x600x600 to 1800x 900x900 plus spare enclosures for yearlings etc. A local friend/breeder is in process of getting his display licence. To get this, his enclosures MUST be 1200x900x900 for each snake. He has 45 snakes (about 30 adults including a pair of Bredli's at 3.5-4.0m, and rents a cozy 3 br house. It is impossible to fit 30+ 1200x900x900 enclosures inside the house&shed. The snakes are in smaller, but decent size (biggest possible) enclosures which are adequate, at least. The snakes all seem happy and healthy enough. He has to out source some of his snakes while the checks are made during the licensing process.

My point is, if we want to see and show our snakes in a naturalistic environment, a nice size enclosure is the norm. Where the sheer number of animals makes it impossible/impractical to have so many enclosures at 2/3rds the length of each snake, I believe, as long as each snake has the things mentioned earlier, ventilation, heat, food, water etc, a say, 2m python could be very happy in a 600x600x600 (less than 2/3rds snake length) enclosure or even a little smaller. I mean, we freight snakes in tiny boxes, I have bought my snakes home in a 30L tub, they dont seem to suffer claustraphobia.

 

[GeckoJosh]

Yes snakes that arent in small tubs get to use their muscle climbing up perches etc, I know my carpets when hungry move non stop all night long, so yes they do get more exercise imo.