Pgymy Beardie Help!!

[MissFuller]

Hey guys,

Ive just checked on my pygmy beardies and one was looking very ill and wasnt alert and moving. I picked him up and he started shaking in my hand!!
Its stopped shaking and ive put it back in its enclosure but its very lethargic and not moving!

HELP!! =(

 

[channi]

Do you dust your insects with calcium and have your beardies under a uv light?

 

[user 16324]

three letters- VET

 

[IsaHerpLvrs]

three letters- VET

Agreed!

 

[MissFuller]

yeah just toke the two to the uni vet and they are sayn it could be afew things most likely to be a.d.d liver disease but wont know till it dies.the vet was prity good given a free autopsy if it dies went threw lot of things with us and i was freaking out thinking we done something wrong but if its what the liver disease its the breeders at falt his hole collection of lizards and dragons will have it so what do i do now if they die do i go back to the breeder and if i do what do i say or what do i ask for

 

[Kitah]

How old are they? What is the setup like? UVB tubes replaced at what frequency, and how close can the dragons get? Do you supplement them with calcium powder and if so how frequently? Have there been any other signs prior to now? How are the others, any abnormal signs?

 

[SYNeR]

Temps? UVB? Calcium & Vitamin Supplements? General diet?

It seems shaking is sometimes a sign of metabolic bone disease (as others have said).
I had a recent scare myself where my dragon injured his leg.. I thought it was MBD (despite being reasonably sure my husbandry was fine),
but an x-ray ruled that out.

metabolic bone disease tremors bearded dragon - YouTube

 

[MissFuller]

there in a small 2 foot tank and its 30cm high (payin off the new tank) theres only 2 of the lil guys heats at 32 i dust all there food religiously dont know about signs these are my first lot they where very slugish since i got em there heads where always down eyes always closed and they are still eating

 

[Kitah]

UVB availability?

To be honest, being young dragons with trembling... It sounds more like a calcium abnromality- which can occur primarily due to kidney 'malfunction' as the kidneys are essential to stimulate the absorption of calcium from the gastrointestinal system, and to utilise calcium stores in bones, OR secondarily due to a nutritional deficiency- called nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism. This can either arise from inadequate calcium in the diet, an inappropriate Calcium to phosphorous ratio or inadequate UVB exposure. UVB is essential for calcium absorption, and even if you provide unlimited plain calcium, you can still get metabolic bone disease if no UVB is provided to young, growing dragons.

Liver disease COULD cause neurological signs, however in a young dragon this is quite unlikely unless it has been fed a diet soley on dog food or similar, and even then it at least 75% of the liver needs to be non-functional before you start seeing any clinical signs associated with nitrogenous and other toxic wastes building up.

I haven't seen the dragon so can't safely comment, however metabolic bone disease is the most likely cause in this scenario. Hypocalcaemia can be treated.

Anyway.. Goodluck

 

[Chris1]

please answer the questions youre being asked about UVB tubes. its important.

also, what are u dusting the food with? pure calcium? calcium with added vitamin D3, or calcium mixed with a bunch of random vitamins that probably do more harm than good?

32 is a bit low.

to be honest if they had their heads down and were lethargic from the moment you got them you should have contacted the breeder immediately, for either a replacement or refund, alot can go wrong with young growing dragons in the space of 2 weeks if the husbandry is wrong.

is the vet a reptile specialist? it seems strange to jump straight to the conclusion of liver disease in such young animals, unless ofcourse you had blood tests done, which from memory take a day or 2 to come back,....

 

[MissFuller]

Its a 2.0 UVB tube.
Weve been told this morning that they need 10.0 so were in the wrong there.

Calcium powder is JURASSICAL.
Once a week we dust as the food is gutloaded.

We assumed that since they were 2 weeks old it was normal. Stupid mistake on our behalf.

& the vet is from the Avian, reptile and exotic pet hospital in Camden. The uni vet. Hes brilliant! He ruled out MBD. Said its defs not that at this stage. Hes given us anti biotics hoping its a bacterial infection but since hes seen 12 or more cases this year of dragons brought in with the same symptoms he thinks its this liver disease.

 

[Kitah]

How did he 'rule out' metabolic bone disease? Given the history (UVB 2.0 tube, and once weekly calcium supplementation), clinical signs and age, it's screaming to me metabolic bone disease (being so young it could be a congenital renal abnormality, even). Did he take radiographs and check bone density? Take blood to check for hypocalcaemia, elevated liver enzymes, low or high urea, high ammonia etc?

To jump to liver disease, with this history, I find rather bizarre.... Ideally it would be good to get a further diagnostic work up

Sorry, I'm not trying to go against what the veterinarian said- the logic just doesn't seem to make much sense, unless further diagnostics HAVE actually been done on this dragon..

 

[MissFuller]

he said because their heads are hard it rules out MBD.

 

[Marzzy]

I would be drowning them in liquid calcium.
What are there tails like ? Any kinks ?

 

[MissFuller]

Their tails look normal? Well like they always have. No kinks

 

[Kitah]

The supposed theory behind that is that as calcium is removed from bones, and is replaced by fibrous tissue which, when there is a lot of it, the bones become quite 'rubbery.'

That idea is fairly flawed, for a number of reasons. One example- with primary renal hypocalcaemia/metabolic bone disease, the kidneys aren't producing the hormone that triggers the uptake of calcium from bones- so you don't get the fibrosis and thus rubbery like bones. There are multiple other reasons why this idea is flawed, and can't reliably used as the only method to 'rule out' MBD.

The only ways to really rule out MBD are radiographs and serum calcium. Radiographs are a method to assess the bone density- decreased density is supportive of MBD, as are abnormally shaped bones and the presence of fractures (termed pathological, because a pathological process is responsible for the fractures). Serum calcium can often be normal until the animal is terminal, depending on the cause of the calcium deficiency- if due to a primary renal cause, it may be low on bloods.

Anyway.. Just my opinion and thoughts.

 

[Origamislice]

I would be drowning them in liquid calcium.
What are there tails like ? Any kinks ?

this is not advisable as calcium melts at 839 degrees and these temppretures would kill the animal

 

[SYNeR]

I'd recommend ditching the UVB 10.0 bulb (they're okay I suppose), and getting a good mercury vapour bulb if the enclosure can handle the extra heat.

 

[MissFuller]

ok some one said 32 was abit cold for em so wat is the right temp in the hot end

 

[IgotFrogs]

About 38 degrees you want for a basking spot as long as they can get out of it also they need a 10.0 UVB at lest ..... And I think your vet could be wrong you need to keep in mind if you correct what the issue is you may well be able to save this little guy so there for if we tell you to try to increase the UVB what it going to hurt anyway right ?