Croc hunt will endanger humans - Bob Irwin

[News Bot]

CONSERVATIONIST Bob Irwin says a plan for trophy hunters to kill up to 50 saltwater crocodiles in the Northern Territory each year could result in more attacks against humans.

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Published On: 15-Jun-12 03:01 PM
Source: via NEWS.com.au

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[abnrmal91]

His argument doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. Yes if you remove a large male croc from an area, smaller crocs will move in to that section. However if there was a large croc in the area to start with there would have already been a risk of attack. The main reason people get attacked is due to the younger crocs having to move to new (previously croc free) areas, due to larger crocs evicting them. As a result people don't expect a croc to be in or around the water when they are attacked.

 

[Waterrat]

There is another thread: Another go at croc safari hunting dealing with this issue and SteveNT and I commented on removal of large, old crocs.

Taking 50 crocs / year is not going to put a dent into the population and what many people may not be aware of - croc hunting is happening in NT big way .... for socio-political reasons it just doesn't get reported.
What also concerns me is, where will the money go. That needs to be thought out and spelled out very clearly. To say "the indigenous communities will benefit" is just not good enough.
Bob has got his heart in the right place but we should also be listening to Graham Webb at al.

 

[Thyla]

I agree it should happen but under a number of circumstances:
1. Only if the money earned for issuing the licenses goes directly back into conservation of animals
2. That there is an ongoing population assessment of NT crocodiles (say, once or twice a year)
3. The population numbers determine the following years quota

I don't know why people bring in the issues of increased/decreased chance of being attacked. If anything, the hunters may become the hunted

 

[Waterrat]

Thyla,

I like your suggestion 1. The question is, who is going to collect the money and who is going to administer it, distribute it and how. Last thing we want to see is the money going into the government's "black hole" coffers.
2. Population assessments are carried out in NT regularly and the numbers are available. To survey 2x a year is unthinkable. Do you have any idea the costs involved, just in flying choppers alone?
3. The population numbers have been constant for some years now and 50 crocs is a drop in the ocean.

The chances of being attacked by crocodiles are also constant - whatever the chances are because the population size is stable.

 

[Mayo]

Evolution has always allowed the strongest to survive to full size and breed. To only go after Trophy animals, ie biggest, strongest and least susceptible to disease, my concern starts with weakening the gene pool. This can already be seen with regular kangaroo culls.

 

[Waterrat]

From the other thread:

my post:

I am all for it, there is just one thing that the "regulators" need to realise and that is; the trophy hunters want to roll over the biggest crocs and go home with the biggest trophies. The big, old crocs are the foundation of healthy future populations, they have the genes of experienced survivors. It's vital to leave them alone.

SteveNT reply:

I agree Waterrat but you find the big old boys are acutely aware of hunting, they're from a time when it was standard practice to shoot crocs. They are very wary and if you do see them it is never for long.

 

[Freehandler]

Gotta get those dang gators... Cleetus, grab me my shootin stick...

 

[Kareeves]

we have roo shoots so why not have croc shoots people who shoot the animal for the meat and skin not as a thing to hang on the wall. The meat is sold to the croc farm people or something along them lines. Ow and i think the big old crocs should be of the shooting list

 

[SteveNT]

Dont forget you mob that the crocs were around before the dinosaurs, ate the dinosaurs, and are still going strong in northern Australia. They may well outlast homo sapiens too.

A quote from Graham Webb several years ago "give me the Navy, the Army and the Airforce and I still couldn't make them (salties) extinct."

Money from the hunting would be split between the safari operators and the traditional owners under a Section 19 agreement with the Northern Land Council. Along the same lines as G. Bedford's Oenpelli python project. At least we know the safari hunters will be able to find crocodiles lol.

 

[abnrmal91]

Haha Steve, crocs are a lot easier to find then Oenpelli's.

 

[SteveNT]

Too right bro, they look for you!

 

[SteveNT]

Front page of the NT News today is a 4.4 meter croc shot by police because it was snatching dogs and stalking places where kids like to swim.

Result- 1 dead croc and a few photos of it.

$20,000 for a clown safari hunter to shoot it would be a nice bonus in that Community.

 

[abnrmal91]

If the system is managed correctly it would really help to generate much neede income for the local community.

 

[Bluetongue1]

With unrestrained hunting they were shot in their thousands every year. Yet 40 years on they are a problem again, in term of both numbers and large animals encroaching into populated areas. And at the same time, thousands of eggs have been harvested from nests each year to supply crocodile farms. If 50 large crocs per year sounds like a lot, that is because you have no concept of the absolute numbers present, the massive area over which they occur and their reproductive potential.

Why should removal of large crocs affect the gene pool? Dominant croc have “mating rights” for their stretch of water and so their genes are present in the offspring. The big males will kill or chase off any male that is smaller. When they are too old to fight effectively, one of the subordinates will take over but it will have to battle for the position. It doesn’t matter if it comes from that stretch of water and is a son or if comes from elsewhere and is unrelated. The stronger will win. The same thing happens when you shoot the dominant croc. The remaining crocs battle it out until one establishes dominance.

Evolution has always allowed the strongest to survive to full size and breed. To only go after Trophy animals, ie biggest, strongest and least susceptible to disease, my concern starts with weakening the gene pool. This can already be seen with regular kangaroo culls.

Evolution is not survival the strongest, it is survival of the “fittest”, which means the “best suited” to a given environment. What data leads you to believe there has been a weakening of the gene pool in kangaroos as a result of culling?

Blue

 

[Sinners121]

please people remember that for a croc to get to a monstrous trophy size it has breed countless times!!! hence its genes have already been spread and there is no worry of a problem about weakening the gene pool!! they would have to shoot 1000's of trophy animals to make an effect!!

 

[Mayo]

Evolution is not survival the strongest, it is survival of the “fittest”, which means the “best suited” to a given environment. What data leads you to believe there has been a weakening of the gene pool in kangaroos as a result of culling?

Blue

I think your spliting hairs there with the definition Blue, but there are quite a few research papers about killing the Alpha males from mob groups. A quick search on the net will find a lot of information about this. I should state that I am not against culls, I have seen the damage over population can do especially when I was posted at Pucka. Rather than targeting the "Fittest" however, I think they need to look at a wider field. Or allow a greater pick of eggs for the farms to bring numbers down.

 

[Darlyn]

"Problem crocs" are only a problem in human occupied areas. There are many, many areas that are populated
by crocodiles where the hunters would never need to go so there will always be a huge amount of crocs and variation to the gene pool.

Bob Irwin suggesting that younger crocs will test their predatory skills and hopefully nobody will be in their way is pretty strange. These people live with crocs all the time, why would they put themselves in the way of any croc, young or old? Makes no difference to them which croc inhabits the areas they will still stay away from them.

 

[Bluetongue1]

I think your spliting hairs there with the definition Blue, but there are quite a few research papers about killing the Alpha males from mob groups. A quick search on the net will find a lot of information about this. I should state that I am not against culls, I have seen the damage over population can do especially when I was posted at Pucka. Rather than targeting the "Fittest" however, I think they need to look at a wider field. Or allow a greater pick of eggs for the farms to bring numbers down.

“Article: Bias in Kangaroo Culling
BY DR. DAVID CROFT, SCHOOL OF BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE,
UNSW, SYDNEY NSW 2052....
Should we be concerned?The short answer is that we know insufficient about the genetics of the species in the commercial harvest to determine whether appropriate genetic diversity is being conserved. If a ‘good gene’ is being eliminated in the cull then we would not know until those individuals missing it are tested by some vagary in their environment and found wanting....
We do not know what is happeningbecause this is not a priority of the kangaroo managementprograms but we should be nervous!....”

This is not exactly what you put across in your post. They put forward their grounds for concern but that is as far as it goes.

I am not splitting hairs with respect to the definition. I am simply correcting a common mistake that many make in believing the strongest are more likely to survive. The process we are actually talking about, by the way, is not evolution but the mechanism that allows evolution to occur - natural selection. Young crocs get by on reflexes and stealth, their ability to get a feed without being fed upon, their ability to find a section of water that avoids larger crocs that will make a meal of them. At this stage of the proceedings, strength has nothing to do with survival.

Don’t forget that natural selection applies to all creatures. Strength is hardly likely to be a requisite characteristic for butterflies, nudibranchs, jellyfish, slugs, red-backed spiders, sponges and so on.

 

[Thyla]

Thyla,

I like your suggestion 1. The question is, who is going to collect the money and who is going to administer it, distribute it and how. Last thing we want to see is the money going into the government's "black hole" coffers.
2. Population assessments are carried out in NT regularly and the numbers are available. To survey 2x a year is unthinkable. Do you have any idea the costs involved, just in flying choppers alone?
3. The population numbers have been constant for some years now and 50 crocs is a drop in the ocean.

The chances of being attacked by crocodiles are also constant - whatever the chances are because the population size is stable.

NRETAS would be the obvious choice to manage the project including collecting the funds and issuing the licenses. In terms of distributing it out, I'm not good with finances but as long as there is enough going into the research of the ongoing population size of the crocodiles (can pay for those costly helicopter trips you mention), I'm happy.
It's important to note that just because something is common and abundant today, doesn't mean it will be that way in the future (especially with ongoing increased downwards pressure on the population size). If 50 a year is a drop in the ocean today, in 20, 30 and 50 years time, it may be a lot more significant.

You say population assessments are "regularly" carried out in NT? How often exactly? and in the top end in general?

Blue, well said regarding the evolutionary pressures. I challenge anyone to find me 5 peer reviewed papers concluding that the "strongest" individual in a particular population is evolutionarily "fitter" than the others. You will struggle