Do you know your GTP localities?

[DanN]

Good guess Albino. The animals in pictures 3 and 5 are Australians, while the others are "Meraukes"... but the difference is not in the colour.

None of the points raised in the post can be used to tell these locals apart. In fact, these two populations are virtually impossible to tell apart (they do differ in head shape, however, this is only relative to the overall size of the snake and therefore not a good diagnostic).

I thought this post may be of interest to show the kind of variation that can occur within populations, but also to show that this same variation can encompass traits thought to be associated with other "localities".

Cheers,
Dan

 

[Albino93]

wow i surprised myself i had no idea that 2 different localities could look so much alike. just a question how many different localities are GTP's native/local to?

 

[Bushman]

Thanks for creating such an interesting topic Dan. It demonstrates that the generally accepted criteria used to distinguish between the various forms of GTP are far from reliable indicators.

The only one that I was certain about was #5, which is undoubtedly an Australian specimen, as it looks just like mine.
I was surprised that #3 is an Australian specimen, as it looks a bit different from more "typical" Aussies. Whilst I've seen and bred pure Aussies myself that have a one scale wide shadow pinstripe that overlays the juvenile ghost stripe in some specimens, I haven't seen what appears to be adjacent sooty smudging like that shown in #3. I suspect that this individual is from a different locality to the more commonly seen Iron Range animals. Whether it is or isn't, it's apparent that we need to redefine or at least broaden our description of what constitutes not only typical Australian specimens but also the various exotic "types" as described in literature.

Was the Aussie in pic#3 a yearling or sub-adult?

 

[DanN]

Hi Patrick,

Yep, it's interesting stuff. The individual in picture 3 is a large animal. Small specimens don't display the black along the stripe. This is common to all the southern localities, but I have only seen it in animals that are presumably very old - nothing special really - and certainly not diagnostic... although some folk have suggested that they are a different species..

 

[Waterrat]

Hi Dan,

I had this kind of black dotting in quite a few juveniles, it appears straight after OCC and disappears withing the following year. Is it the same stripe as in your picture (bit too small to see properly)?

 

[Bushman]

Hi Patrick,

Yep, it's interesting stuff. The individual in picture 3 is a large animal. Small specimens don't display the black along the stripe. This is common to all the southern localities, but I have only seen it in animals that are presumably very old - nothing special really - and certainly not diagnostic... although some folk have suggested that they are a different species..

Hi Dan. I'm surprised that the specimen is of adult size, as I've only ever seen it on some juveniles after ontogenetic colour change like the one shown above by Michael. This dark pigment seems to precisely overlay the ghost stripe that exists on some native neonates and juveniles, as mentioned earlier.
It's very interesting indeed that this yearling 'shadow stripe' seems to reappear in old age in some native Australian and perhaps also some southern clade specimens.

 

[DanN]

Hi Patrick/Michael,

To be honest I have never seen that on a wild animal (or maybe I just never noticed). But that is different from the animal in photo 3. It is not the shadow stripe reappearing, but rather a smudging of the white vertebral stripe in very large individuals.

I don't know the significance of the colouration in Michael's picture.

 

[Owzi]

None of the points raised can be used to tell the difference between Aussies or Southern PNG animals. I truly thought it was possible from the shade of green on the animals to a degree. Aussies always seem to be more of a lime green to me, but I've never seen the animals in the wild.
I reckon we all did pretty well with the pics provided!

Regarding the black vertebral markings, Dan have you seen animals from Lake Kutubu? Supposedly they look the same as Merauke type animals but the white vertebral stripe slowly fades to a all black stripe with age.

 

[DanN]

Hi Owzi,

I think you all did very well. Northern animals seem to be a darker shade than those from the south (including Australia). But.. there is such variation wrt to the shade dependent on size, condition, etc that I certainly wouldn't use it as a diagnostic myself.

I haven't been to the lake itself, but I've been close, and also have genetic material from there. I've never seen animals in the wild like the ones your talking about. Those individuals are very large and very old and there is nothing to suggest that the condition isn't just an exaggeration of the black on the animal in the first post.

There is also no reason to believe that they are a new species as many people suggest...

 

[Waterrat]

This will take some photographic effort, but I will document tomorrow (or sometimes in time ....) that older/old captive bred native GTPs loose their vertebral stripe almost completely with age.

 

[Colin]

what about these?

 

[Waterrat]

The one of the right is from Canary Islands, the one on left from moon. Have I got it right?

 

[eipper]

Colin are they shopped? If not that whitish one is stunning

 

[Greenmad]

Both canarys gtps. The white one is a hormonal female and the yellow is her stud.

 

[DanN]

Dunno, but I'd bet they've both got Biak in them somewhere.

 

[Waterrat]

Dan, can you look up post #25 and comment? Is the black line similar to what you described as being intrinsic to old animals?

cheers
M

 

[DanN]

Hi Michael, I answered in post #27. The two stripes are different. I have never seen the stripe like on your animal before. The black on the older specimens is not that common, but I've seen it a few times - they are all very big snakes (for GTPs). It looks like an overall darkening of the scales along the anterior dorsal surface - usually the back end of the snake is still good.

Here's another...

 

[eipper]

Thanks for explanation greenmad

Cheers
scott

 

[Waterrat]

View attachment 257498Hi Michael, I answered in post #27. The two stripes are different. I have never seen the stripe like on your animal before. The black on the older specimens is not that common, but I've seen it a few times - they are all very big snakes (for GTPs). It looks like an overall darkening of the scales along the anterior dorsal surface - usually the back end of the snake is still good.

Here's another...

Sorry Dan, I must have gone to sleep (post #27).
I had about 5 or 6 juveniles like that over the years, always hoping the black dotting would stay forever but ..... LOL
There is another photo by Dickyknee on one of my animals somewhere in the "show us your greens" thread.

Couple more - before and after.

 

[Poggle]

what about these?

soon to be in my lounge room??