The problems facing GTP's
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caliherp
Well-Known Member
This makes me sick. How in the world would any one be able to do this to any creature. Id love a couple minutes alone in a sealed room with the people who did this. As far as imports, unfortunately the American market is fluded with imports. They sell quick to. You can get a farmed red Biak neo for 250$ usd.(lowest i have seen) 450$usd on the high side. Unfortunately with thoes prices i dont see I do not see the imports slowing down. I agree with everyone cb is the only way to go. i would much rather spend 1000 on a good blood line then 250$ on a farmed neo.
Umbral
Very Well-Known Member
Excuse my ignorance, how were foreign GTPs allowed into Australia? Or were they illegally brought in?
caliherp
Well-Known Member
From what little info I gatherd I think they were smuggled in. But don't quote me on this, because i haven't dug into this subject to much. As it doesn't apply to me.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
That's correct, and there should be an "are" rather than a "were," because it's still happening here. Even though GTPs are being bred in good numbers here now, there are still many profteers out there wanting to make a quick buck by buying cheap in Thailand and smuggling into Oz. Members should be aware too, that it's not only GTPs, the market is driven by the desire of everyday keepers to have something unique, so each and every one of the fancy overseas-bred morphs that turns up here has likely had some considerable indignity forced upon it in transit. Admittedly the animals are probably better kept at the other end, but the message is the same - once these things become commodities from which people can make money, eventually the animals are the ones which suffer.
I heard a rumour the other day that there was another load of GTPs coming in from O/S to be dumped on the Oz market - while there are bargain hunters in the market place, the smuggling won't stop...
Jamie
Umbral
Very Well-Known Member
Ok so my next question: why do people with this knowledge advertise non-native GTPs and why is it accepted?I realise that some prominent members here have non-native GTPs and sell them as such. I don't want to start an argument I'm just trying to understand how they became accepted in Australian collections.
Flaviruthless
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Because there was an amnesty in NSW that allowed keepers with non-native GTP's to legally put them on license, therefore there are some exotics that are legal. Also, in QLD you can apply to have an 'international' addition on your license that allows you to keep non-native greens that are the progeny of the legal exotics on license.
This is my understanding of it anyway.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
The understanding of the relative differences between Australian and non-Australian GTPs is a fairly recent phenomenon - maybe only being understood for the past 15 years or so. Prior to that GTPs were GTPs, Stimson's were Stimson's, Womas were Womas and so on. The increasing "sophistication" of the market has meant that in order to sell or obtain something "different," there has to be distinctions made between regional variations of the same species.
In effect, the law says you can keep Chondros, and taxonomically there is no distinction made between regionally variable examples of the species (yet...), so a Chondro is a Chondro regardless of where it came from - and if you acquired it legally (say as a hatchling from a licenced keeper), then you're covered. That's as I understand it.
It wasn't really until Greg Maxwell wrote his excellent book that breeding took off routinely in this country - prior to that, breeding was very hit-and-miss, so in order to appease demand for these snakes, many were smuggled into Oz. I'd be surprised if it doesn't still go on to some extent, but must be a lot reduced with increased scrutiny of travellers.
The advent of a regular supply of Australian GTPs is pretty recent, and we owe a debt of gratitude to Michael Cermak and a couple of others who have really pioneered the work with Aussie GTPs.
Jamie
In effect, the law says you can keep Chondros, and taxonomically there is no distinction made between regionally variable examples of the species (yet...), so a Chondro is a Chondro regardless of where it came from - and if you acquired it legally (say as a hatchling from a licenced keeper), then you're covered. That's as I understand it.
It wasn't really until Greg Maxwell wrote his excellent book that breeding took off routinely in this country - prior to that, breeding was very hit-and-miss, so in order to appease demand for these snakes, many were smuggled into Oz. I'd be surprised if it doesn't still go on to some extent, but must be a lot reduced with increased scrutiny of travellers.
The advent of a regular supply of Australian GTPs is pretty recent, and we owe a debt of gratitude to Michael Cermak and a couple of others who have really pioneered the work with Aussie GTPs.
Jamie
Skelhorn
Very Well-Known Member
That actually made me feel a little sick, any animal in an uncomfortable situation is disheartning but that, thats on a level of its own!
Umbral
Very Well-Known Member
That makes a lot of sense, thank you Jamie.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
You're welcom Umbral
! I should ahve mentioned, as another respondent has, that Qld is currently the only jurisdiction where non-Aussies are noted in collections, and I guess it's because of the taxonomic non-distinction that this is allowed. If the law says you can keep Morelia viridis, without saying where it must come from, then you can't be breaking any law by keeping "Morelia viridis" as long as you acquired it legally.I do think that those who openly advertise "Merauke," "Biak," & "Sorong" GTPs in this country are just pushing the boundaries of bureaucratic tolerance a bit too far, and like hybridising (especially of Carpets), will cause bureaucratically problematic issues to be looked at at a national level, rather than state by state.
Jamie
This is truly shocking! Thanks for posting it up Ryan. It’s a real eye-opener as to what is really going on behind the scenes.
The large scale poaching and smuggling of Morelia viridis is devastating wild populations, like Kofiau Island.
The work of Jessica and Daniel in investigating this horrific activity is truly commendable. These intensely dedicated Australian scientists have bravely exposed these well-organized operations. We owe them a huge thankyou for their enormous efforts and extraordinary courage in investigating and tackling this deplorable activity. Take the time to read their article.
The large scale poaching and smuggling of Morelia viridis is devastating wild populations, like Kofiau Island.
The work of Jessica and Daniel in investigating this horrific activity is truly commendable. These intensely dedicated Australian scientists have bravely exposed these well-organized operations. We owe them a huge thankyou for their enormous efforts and extraordinary courage in investigating and tackling this deplorable activity. Take the time to read their article.
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I know it may seem shocking, but really if imports were allowed into Australia people would be queuing up to get them also. I suppose I am really pointing out that there is a fair bit of hypocrisy involved, people in Western countries say "OMG how terrible, how can that happen???" but it is the people in those same countries that are buying the stuff. The Indonesians in this case are not even making much money out of it, a few dollars if that for the direct collectors, then sold wholesale out of Jakarta for about 120USD six months later 1200-2000 USD (or more) in Europe and the US. Even for a half dead one there will be a buyer willing to put down 200 just to take the bet that they might be able to save it.
As for the trade in wildlife in general, it is nasty and horrible. Living in SE Asia I can buy just about anything, but in reality the bigger problem is deforestation, since then everything is lost. Right now the sky is smokey and hazy again and will be for the next 2-3 months as the forests of Indonesia and Malaysia burn down to be replaced by Palm Plantations. Basically so that everyone in Sydney, Frankfurt, NY and LA can have nice soaps and cheap plywood to make a new "viv" along with a few leftover animals to put in there.
I am ranting a bit, but there is a lot of hypocrisy involved in all of this.
As for the trade in wildlife in general, it is nasty and horrible. Living in SE Asia I can buy just about anything, but in reality the bigger problem is deforestation, since then everything is lost. Right now the sky is smokey and hazy again and will be for the next 2-3 months as the forests of Indonesia and Malaysia burn down to be replaced by Palm Plantations. Basically so that everyone in Sydney, Frankfurt, NY and LA can have nice soaps and cheap plywood to make a new "viv" along with a few leftover animals to put in there.
I am ranting a bit, but there is a lot of hypocrisy involved in all of this.
Ralphee
Not so new Member
I would love to see current figures on this (this is 12 months old now), but with the following quote i doubt anything has changed at all - The stupid things people do to try and earn a dollar with no respect for anything around them
A recent report submitted by LIPI for the
CITES Asian Snake Trade Workshop (2011) stated that the illegal
trade of snakes in Indonesia was non-existent.Spot on Snotty - you're ranting for sure, but they’re facts nonetheless. You can find another tirade here: Importers are..... in Morelia Viridis Forum Forum
While it is certainly a problem, smuggling green pythons into Australia isn't the main issue. Smuggling is always going to occur in some form, but the issue here is that these snakes are exported from Indonesia in huge numbers as captive-bred - with valid CITES permits. There are three "range states" where green pythons occur naturally - Australia, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea - and it's illegal to export wild green pythons from all of them.
From two of these range states (Australia and PNG) it is also illegal to export greens in any form (wild, ranched, farmed or captive-bred). However, Indonesia allows green pythons that are bred in captivity to be exported for commercial purposes. Obviously it's a hell of a lot easier (and cheaper) to take them from the wild and tell people you bred them in captivity than it is to actually breed them. This is why they are exported legally, because it is impossible for authorities to tell the difference between wild-caught and captive-bred.
Ralphee, with all due respect to the relevant authorities, unfortunately Indonesia doesn't have the capacity to enforce the conservation laws they have in place. Therefore, whether they are aware of illegal practices or not, to save face, they conclude that illegal trade is non-existent - but this is not the case.
Despite all the work being done to prevent illegal trade, green pythons are, as we speak, being harvested from the wild for the pet trade. It is not the local peoples we should be pointing the finger at; they’re just trying to feed their families. Instead, we should be looking to the large number of wealthy European and American importers that knowingly exploit Indonesia's lack of governance. Without an adequate mechanism in place to prevent these folk trading illegally, surely it is up to the consumer to become educated about the trade and make a conscious choice about what they think is right - because after all, if it wasn't for our demand we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
In regard to the images, local Papuan people aren't trained in the husbandry of reptiles. They're as devastated as we are to see these things because it means they lose money. I'm actually surprised they get as many through as they do in good health...
Cheers,
Dan
While it is certainly a problem, smuggling green pythons into Australia isn't the main issue. Smuggling is always going to occur in some form, but the issue here is that these snakes are exported from Indonesia in huge numbers as captive-bred - with valid CITES permits. There are three "range states" where green pythons occur naturally - Australia, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea - and it's illegal to export wild green pythons from all of them.
From two of these range states (Australia and PNG) it is also illegal to export greens in any form (wild, ranched, farmed or captive-bred). However, Indonesia allows green pythons that are bred in captivity to be exported for commercial purposes. Obviously it's a hell of a lot easier (and cheaper) to take them from the wild and tell people you bred them in captivity than it is to actually breed them. This is why they are exported legally, because it is impossible for authorities to tell the difference between wild-caught and captive-bred.
Ralphee, with all due respect to the relevant authorities, unfortunately Indonesia doesn't have the capacity to enforce the conservation laws they have in place. Therefore, whether they are aware of illegal practices or not, to save face, they conclude that illegal trade is non-existent - but this is not the case.
Despite all the work being done to prevent illegal trade, green pythons are, as we speak, being harvested from the wild for the pet trade. It is not the local peoples we should be pointing the finger at; they’re just trying to feed their families. Instead, we should be looking to the large number of wealthy European and American importers that knowingly exploit Indonesia's lack of governance. Without an adequate mechanism in place to prevent these folk trading illegally, surely it is up to the consumer to become educated about the trade and make a conscious choice about what they think is right - because after all, if it wasn't for our demand we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
In regard to the images, local Papuan people aren't trained in the husbandry of reptiles. They're as devastated as we are to see these things because it means they lose money. I'm actually surprised they get as many through as they do in good health...
Cheers,
Dan
Spot on Snotty - you're ranting for sure, but they’re facts nonetheless. You can find another tirade here: Importers are..... in Morelia Viridis Forum Forum
While it is certainly a problem, smuggling green pythons into Australia isn't the main issue. Smuggling is always going to occur in some form, but the issue here is that these snakes are exported from Indonesia in huge numbers as captive-bred - with valid CITES permits. There are three "range states" where green pythons occur naturally - Australia, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea - and it's illegal to export wild green pythons from all of them.
From two of these range states (Australia and PNG) it is also illegal to export greens in any form (wild, ranched, farmed or captive-bred). However, Indonesia allows green pythons that are bred in captivity to be exported for commercial purposes. Obviously it's a hell of a lot easier (and cheaper) to take them from the wild and tell people you bred them in captivity than it is to actually breed them. This is why they are exported legally, because it is impossible for authorities to tell the difference between wild-caught and captive-bred.
Ralphee, with all due respect to the relevant authorities, unfortunately Indonesia doesn't have the capacity to enforce the conservation laws they have in place. Therefore, whether they are aware of illegal practices or not, to save face, they conclude that illegal trade is non-existent - but this is not the case.
Despite all the work being done to prevent illegal trade, green pythons are, as we speak, being harvested from the wild for the pet trade. It is not the local peoples we should be pointing the finger at; they’re just trying to feed their families. Instead, we should be looking to the large number of wealthy European and American importers that knowingly exploit Indonesia's lack of governance. Without an adequate mechanism in place to prevent these folk trading illegally, surely it is up to the consumer to become educated about the trade and make a conscious choice about what they think is right - because after all, if it wasn't for our demand we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
In regard to the images, local Papuan people aren't trained in the husbandry of reptiles. They're as devastated as we are to see these things because it means they lose money. I'm actually surprised they get as many through as they do in good health...
Cheers,
Dan
Thats what I was looking for. Thanks.
Foxoftherose
New Member
It's odd for me to say this as a herp keeper, but I truly hate the animal trade. My country (the US) is seriously lacking in laws to keep crap like this from happening, makes me so mad... So, is there anything I can do to prevent this, aside from buying only captive bred?
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