The problems facing GTP's

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Hey Caliherp,

Agreed, in theory it sounds great. Unfortunately, however, it has been trialled all over the world with only very limited success. All good examples relate to large African and American megafauna. These are species that are large, charismatic and easily visible. Thinking about it practically, I cannot think of many places in Papua where anyone but the more intrepid herpers would pay to visit given the difficulty of finding green pythons, for example. Many of these Eco-tourism for conservation ventures have done more harm than good and I'd imagine require a high level of philanthropy to succeed.

Waterrat, hear and agree with what your saying, but surely there are enough greens in captivity around the place to realize the demand.. perhaps not... but that means a lot of snakes are dying before their time given the number that are imported annually.. :)
 
A long rant since it is a Sunday afternoon.

I know the wild animal trade is emotive, but that is the problem, it is easy to see some photographs of injured snakes and get worked up. However on the scale of things it is a minimal issue. When the whole lot is burnt down and cleared for Palm plantations it becomes irrelevant what snakes were taken. There is nothing left.

As I mentioned before the fires are starting again and will be with us now till the rainy season comes back about November, sometimes the visibility will drop to a few hundred yards, but since the pictures are boring nobody really gets worked up about that.Nobody seems bothered by the oil and gas contracts awarded in the Aru Islands over the last 12 months which will do far more damage than collecting GTPs will. It is much easier to dream of a V8 (choose your car) in the garage, GTP in the living room and somehow blame the locals in a foreign country.

The Indonesian Government is aware of the problems, but reptile smuggling is about 2371 on the list of daily issues. 231 dead just from Eid Traffic accidents this weekend so far, an outbreak of bird flu in the Riau Islands, seperatists in Aceh and Irian Jaya as always, religious problems in many areas, the police post in Surakarta came under fire last night, Aussie and Brit Tourists in Bali... and on and on. And that is not just Indonesia but that is the daily reality for many countries.

All of the Indonesians I have ever known are very proud of their country and the wildlife in it, but there are simply limits to what can be done. Poor villagers are just worried about finding dinner for their family for tonight, and middle class Indonesians simply do not have the resources or time to do much either. Most do not have the luxury we do to worry about such things.

To make it worse as I mentioned before there is some serious hypocrisy here, the Indonesians should not allow land clearing, or oil and gas in the Malukus but when I travel back to Australia and get to the East Coast I can fly for a few hours over farmland with only a few patches of bush left. Most of the places I went collecting reptiles as a boy are now under housing estates since everyone wants their 1/4 acre block. Not many in Australia were too bothered in 05 when logging was allowed in one of the last stands left where Superb Parrots nest, destroying 60% of their last nesting habitat. (Barmah) or later in 08 with the few left when NPWS had to be called in as so many people were running them over in cars after they were feeding on grain spilt on the roads.(Too lazy to even slow down while driving or beep their horn - who knows the reasoning there.)

It is all horrible but there are no easy solutions at all, Indonesians do not want to be poor forever so that collectors can have birds, reptiles and fish to show off to their friends in NY and London.

Tourism is hardly the answer, Bali, Phuket, Cebu and even Cairns come to mind. Not that many people visit those places to see nature as such. Even Cairns it is a party town and people can tick off 'yep I have seen the reef' - and then go back home and decide they want a marine aquarium for the living room with a "Nemo". Bali and Phuket the only wildlife most are interested in are found in the pubs and beaches.

Even the arguably succesful tourism of Komodo is very dodgy, not to mention the island was basically sold to PKA. In the old days you had to spend days sailing just to get there, which was risky in itself, but at least you could get about. Now it is more like visiting a theme park.

I know many will not like my thoughts, and they are generally not very optimistic, but that is based on 30 years of working with Wildlife and for the last 15 years being based in SE Asia. The only real answer turns out to be education. It was only a generation ago that most Australians thought the only good snake was a dead snake.

For example school programs work well and a % of license fees could go towards that, but on an international scale that would be almost impossible to make work. However on the plus side even small local efforts can make a big difference, from something as simple as showing your neighbour your animals through to more public and schools based programmes.

Regulation does make a difference but it has to be done carefully and sensibly, Australia in the 70's and 80's is a good example where herping was basically an underground activity - more like joining a secret society. The majority of people simply had no idea about those 'slimey' animals. However with deregulation more people became involved and probably in many cases started out because 'it was cool' but then many will also start heading to the library (these days the internet) and learning more, not just about the reptiles but all of the other aspects of the natural world. So there is a tradeoff there, many reptiles die through errors and stupidity in the hands of keepers, but then there is a much greater awareness to balance that.

Regulation only ever works with education alongside it. The wild bird trade and plants come to mind where there is massive regulation but also a much greater awareness of the problem. In some ways the reptile trade is still catching up in that regard. It is much easier to get public attention over a Macaw stuffed in a suitcase compared to a snake.

With GTPs in particular the only real hope is that prices come down to a point where it is no longer economical to take them from the wild. In that regard progress is being made with much more CB happening and a huge leap in understanding husbandry in the last 20 years. Since for wild caught there are simple not the resources to police these things in the originating countries, and by the time they have made it to Jakarta, then through Singapore or direct into Frankfurt - by that stage the paper work is perfect and they are easily reimported to their final destination.(In this case Singapore are only a transhipment point, but are very strict if a i is not dotted it will be seized, but they are also hamstrung in knowing it is a bit dodgy but if the paperwork out of Jakarta is in order there is nothing they can do if it is not breaking international law).

Ultimately though I think there are much bigger threats than local collection. Nobody seems too bothered by the thought of Oil Exploration in Laurenz NP for example.

Again a very long mixed up rant and probably a bit cynical, but it is something I have dedicated most of my life to. I should also say that Indonesia is just one country, the above would apply to many many countries, from Kenya to the Philippines.
 
A truly excellent post Snotty - covers so many of the bases which are otherwise ignored or just not considered in context. Bloody palm oil plantations... but those who condemn it probably eat products prepared with palm oil every day...

Jamie
 
I know many will not like my thoughts, and they are generally not very optimistic

No, they're not very optimistic, but unfortunately they're very true. I couldn't have said it better myself and agree with all your points, thank you.
 
Dan, the Australian market is different to that in OS. We don't have the opportunity to acquire WC chondros from different localities like the US and European keepers have, so in that respect, we can point the finger at THEM for supporting the WC business. Back home, we are at the mercy of what the smugglers bring in from the Indo farms, which is invariably a mix lot of who knows what and usually in poor condition. The big import 3 years ago was success because of the low price - nothing else. Now that the latest craze here are red babies which sell for around 3K, another shipment (of red babies) arrived just few weeks ago, only this time from a different place.

You're right in that there are enough chondros in captivity to meet the demand but it's still "expensive" (in terms of time and effort to get them to feed, etc.) to produce them, hence cheap imports are still a preferred option for those entrepreneurs.

Other than agreeing with everything that's been said about other challenges chondros face, and the general hypocrisy, I was surprised that chondros are coming in so regularly in such large numbers still. I say surprised, but given the price, it makes perfect sense, I guess I had not thought about it since I am not involved in chondros.

Since some who are into chondros obviously have detailed knowledge of when, how many of, and by deduction, at least partially to whom, these snakes are being imported, is it just bureaucratic hold ups that your tip offs have not resulted in anything being done?
 
Other than agreeing with everything that's been said about other challenges chondros face, and the general hypocrisy, I was surprised that chondros are coming in so regularly in such large numbers still. I say surprised, but given the price, it makes perfect sense, I guess I had not thought about it since I am not involved in chondros.

Since some who are into chondros obviously have detailed knowledge of when, how many of, and by deduction, at least partially to whom, these snakes are being imported, is it just bureaucratic hold ups that your tip offs have not resulted in anything being done?

Killimike, those involved in importation don't exactly advertise their activities, and there's a big difference between acting on rumours and actual proveable info. And most of the government instruments dont have the resources to act on every rumour of wrongdoing.

Jamie
 
Snotty
Your post is so heartbreakingly true and Thank You for taking the time to explain the big picture as I am sure most modern day reptile keepers have no idea from where their pets originated
Keep up the great words of wisdom
Cheers
Sandee :)
 
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Tip offs?

Killimike, those involved in importation don't exactly advertise their activities, and there's a big difference between acting on rumours and actual proveable info. And most of the government instruments dont have the resources to act on every rumour of wrongdoing.

Jamie

Jamie, I of course agree 100%, your statement makes a lot of sense. I am not sure how to phrase it, but I suppose I mean that those rumours are not 'just' rumours to many people, I'm sure. Who those people are, or how many of them there are, I have no idea.
 
A long rant since it is a Sunday afternoon.

Again a very long mixed up rant and probably a bit cynical, but it is something I have dedicated most of my life to. I should also say that Indonesia is just one country, the above would apply to many many countries, from Kenya to the Philippines.

I much prefer to call a spade a spade mate.

The paper was an interesting read... but the whole time while I was reading it (while knowing that Indonesia is one of the most corrupt countries I have ever set foot in), there were no surprises. There are no workable solutions that I can see in the near future, and thats the way it is over there.

The main governing factor however is that individuals of wealthy countries provide a marketplace and this is the powerhead that causes so much destruction. Palm oil being number 1, mining and deforestation etc.
There is stuff that oozes out of this system all over the place. Humans are just a slow nuclear bomb. Greens just happen to be the flavour today.
 
A long rant since it is a Sunday afternoon.

I know the wild animal trade is emotive, but that is the problem, it is easy to see some photographs of injured snakes and get worked up. However on the scale of things it is a minimal issue. When the whole lot is burnt down and cleared for Palm plantations it becomes irrelevant what snakes were taken. There is nothing left.

As I mentioned before the fires are starting again and will be with us now till the rainy season comes back about November, sometimes the visibility will drop to a few hundred yards, but since the pictures are boring nobody really gets worked up about that.Nobody seems bothered by the oil and gas contracts awarded in the Aru Islands over the last 12 months which will do far more damage than collecting GTPs will. It is much easier to dream of a V8 (choose your car) in the garage, GTP in the living room and somehow blame the locals in a foreign country.

The Indonesian Government is aware of the problems, but reptile smuggling is about 2371 on the list of daily issues. 231 dead just from Eid Traffic accidents this weekend so far, an outbreak of bird flu in the Riau Islands, seperatists in Aceh and Irian Jaya as always, religious problems in many areas, the police post in Surakarta came under fire last night, Aussie and Brit Tourists in Bali... and on and on. And that is not just Indonesia but that is the daily reality for many countries.

All of the Indonesians I have ever known are very proud of their country and the wildlife in it, but there are simply limits to what can be done. Poor villagers are just worried about finding dinner for their family for tonight, and middle class Indonesians simply do not have the resources or time to do much either. Most do not have the luxury we do to worry about such things.

To make it worse as I mentioned before there is some serious hypocrisy here, the Indonesians should not allow land clearing, or oil and gas in the Malukus but when I travel back to Australia and get to the East Coast I can fly for a few hours over farmland with only a few patches of bush left. Most of the places I went collecting reptiles as a boy are now under housing estates since everyone wants their 1/4 acre block. Not many in Australia were too bothered in 05 when logging was allowed in one of the last stands left where Superb Parrots nest, destroying 60% of their last nesting habitat. (Barmah) or later in 08 with the few left when NPWS had to be called in as so many people were running them over in cars after they were feeding on grain spilt on the roads.(Too lazy to even slow down while driving or beep their horn - who knows the reasoning there.)

It is all horrible but there are no easy solutions at all, Indonesians do not want to be poor forever so that collectors can have birds, reptiles and fish to show off to their friends in NY and London.

Tourism is hardly the answer, Bali, Phuket, Cebu and even Cairns come to mind. Not that many people visit those places to see nature as such. Even Cairns it is a party town and people can tick off 'yep I have seen the reef' - and then go back home and decide they want a marine aquarium for the living room with a "Nemo". Bali and Phuket the only wildlife most are interested in are found in the pubs and beaches.

Even the arguably succesful tourism of Komodo is very dodgy, not to mention the island was basically sold to PKA. In the old days you had to spend days sailing just to get there, which was risky in itself, but at least you could get about. Now it is more like visiting a theme park.

I know many will not like my thoughts, and they are generally not very optimistic, but that is based on 30 years of working with Wildlife and for the last 15 years being based in SE Asia. The only real answer turns out to be education. It was only a generation ago that most Australians thought the only good snake was a dead snake.

For example school programs work well and a % of license fees could go towards that, but on an international scale that would be almost impossible to make work. However on the plus side even small local efforts can make a big difference, from something as simple as showing your neighbour your animals through to more public and schools based programmes.

Regulation does make a difference but it has to be done carefully and sensibly, Australia in the 70's and 80's is a good example where herping was basically an underground activity - more like joining a secret society. The majority of people simply had no idea about those 'slimey' animals. However with deregulation more people became involved and probably in many cases started out because 'it was cool' but then many will also start heading to the library (these days the internet) and learning more, not just about the reptiles but all of the other aspects of the natural world. So there is a tradeoff there, many reptiles die through errors and stupidity in the hands of keepers, but then there is a much greater awareness to balance that.

Regulation only ever works with education alongside it. The wild bird trade and plants come to mind where there is massive regulation but also a much greater awareness of the problem. In some ways the reptile trade is still catching up in that regard. It is much easier to get public attention over a Macaw stuffed in a suitcase compared to a snake.

With GTPs in particular the only real hope is that prices come down to a point where it is no longer economical to take them from the wild. In that regard progress is being made with much more CB happening and a huge leap in understanding husbandry in the last 20 years. Since for wild caught there are simple not the resources to police these things in the originating countries, and by the time they have made it to Jakarta, then through Singapore or direct into Frankfurt - by that stage the paper work is perfect and they are easily reimported to their final destination.(In this case Singapore are only a transhipment point, but are very strict if a i is not dotted it will be seized, but they are also hamstrung in knowing it is a bit dodgy but if the paperwork out of Jakarta is in order there is nothing they can do if it is not breaking international law).

Ultimately though I think there are much bigger threats than local collection. Nobody seems too bothered by the thought of Oil Exploration in Laurenz NP for example.

Again a very long mixed up rant and probably a bit cynical, but it is something I have dedicated most of my life to. I should also say that Indonesia is just one country, the above would apply to many many countries, from Kenya to the Philippines.

Iagree with you. Your thoughts arnt really optimistic, but they are realistic. Eco_tourism was just wishfull thinnking on my part.
 
Hi Patrick
Pictures of breedings, pictures of eggs hatching etc. Starting this year i will be putting the days newspaper with hatching eggs.
Personally if i don't see pics of parents mating and eggs hatching i don't buy. I know people can just give pictures etc of animals but the Australian newspaper date in pics says a lot more.

Not a dig here at all Mate but this day and age who buys news papers? Hahaha

And allot of the time breeders miss copulation and just notice there gravid at ovulation. Well that's what happened with a pair of mine this year! So now I'm not a trust worthy breeder? If any hatch that is.


Cheers Brenton
 
Not a dig here at all Mate but this day and age who buys news papers? Hahaha

And allot of the time breeders miss copulation and just notice there gravid at ovulation. Well that's what happened with a pair of mine this year! So now I'm not a trust worthy breeder? If any hatch that is.


Cheers Brenton


Brenton,
Actually i do buy newspapers for a read and i use them for my animals substrate.lol
A pic at hatching is very easy as it does take them a few days to leave the egg normally.
As for copulation pictures of them, just aids in the matter of showing the parents to potential buyers.
As i stated it is personally what I'm doing this season. Also when did i say anything about not being a trust worthy breeder.
Personally if i was forking out a thousand or more dollars on a animal i would want to know the history and what the parents looked like of the said animal.
 
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No I red the whole thread and basically how I took it as that is all I just used my experience as a example. Was not a dig at all mate just trying to see where the thread was going. First time on the net in a while just catching up :)


Cheers Brenton
 
Not a dig here at all Mate but this day and age who buys news papers?


Cheers Brenton


I was visiting my daughter and son-in-law the other night
when I asked if I could borrow a newspaper.

'This is the 21st century, old man,' he said.
'We don't waste money on newspapers.
Here, you can borrow my iPad,

I can tell you, that bloody fly never knew what hit it.
 
Snotty you are absolutely correct about education
Only problem is a fairly big one
We do about 2 schools a week here in Bali in the dry season when we are not so busy
International schools are a waste of time because those kids will leave Indonesia when their parents contracts in Indo expire
So we try to concentrate on local schools
With International schools we just bring a few reps and a power point presentation
Easy peasy with no real cost to me except time
Local schools dont have computers so maybe 100 kids get colour printed folder with loads of info and photos etc
Cost me a motza and no funding over this way
Gf is back in Kalimantan trying to set a few educational things up there
But in all honesty I think I wont be able to maintain it unless I win lotto
Yet places like Kalimantan, Papua and Sumatra are the places were ecological environmental and animal education are most critically needed and the locations where it is most needed have the least opportunities for any good schooling

Even in Australia reptiles are a long way down anyones list as a desirable animal to protect or help
In Asia, where 95% are terrified of reptiles they have an even lower chance

Completely agree about Indonesians loving both their country and their wildlife
But poor Indonesians still need to eat and food must come first for them

Kalimantan is especially vulnerable to development because it is so flat
Papua Sulawesi and Sumatra will always have areas where over development is virtually impossible because of the terrain

Westerners, [that means you and me, everyone] have created the markets that are destroying paradise
Only Westerners can help stop it at this point

I still believe in eco tourism as a good tool to help protect areas and animals
Although Tanjing Puting for orangutans is a bit of a scam it is still doing a lot of great work and that area is getting more protected every year
 
Again a very long mixed up rant and probably a bit cynical, but it is something I have dedicated most of my life to. I should also say that Indonesia is just one country, the above would apply to many many countries, from Kenya to the Philippines.

Your post was so well thought out - a really excellent contribution to this discussion. Thank you.
 
They treat the animals really bad and with no respect :( heres and article that i found pretty interesting if you wanted to have a read- Lax reporting fuels illegal reptile trade | Connect Asia | ABC Radio Australia :D

Some of that article is nearly correct in some places but is based on old information
Most snake hunters/dealers know that they get best money for quality animals
Large scale smuggling is big dollars
With big dollars comes the ability to use efficient transport systems to minimise damage to the transported animals
EG in Papua gravid female chondros are prime targets
Let eggs hatch and ship the hatchies from Papua to Jakarta
Simpler to ship because of space requirements with equal returns if they arrive at export farms in good condition
Small shipments often are not properly cared for
 
I'm seriously doubt that much of the big dollars made my smugglers and importers is put back into improving the quality of life and transport conditions of the smuggled animals. You can also safely bet that no serious veterinary treatment is given to sick and dying animals.
 
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