Jag history?

[Chondrobsessed]

I did a google search put couldn't find the answer.
How did Jags come to be? Was it a random mutation?
If so did one occur in Aus and overseas?
I'm just curious, I'm sure many ppl on APS know alot about these guys.
Thanks!

 

[saximus]

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/jags-125451/

Read post #10 in that thread. It's quite an interesting read

 

[Ozzie Python]

Save you the link (sax beat me to posting the same thing), below is a post i stole from Roger which i believe is an extract from the orignal breeder- The jaguarpython.com website is down or changed.


From the original breeder of jags Jan Eric Engell


Jaguar historien Teksten er klippet fra Jan Eric Engels gamle hjemmeside.


After several years of breeding Coastal Carpet Pythons, Morelia s. mcdowelli, (former Morelia s. variegatae) I suddenly produced a most unusual looking specimen one day in 1994.

It looked completely different compared to all other mcdowelli hatchlings as far as pattern and color was concerned. It was almost patternless along its back except for a few markings on its neck. The background color was of a light pinkish tan with light brown blotches bordered with a black edging along the sides of the entire body.

Between the age of two and three the background color of this animal turned more and more yellow. As an adult this male still takes my breath away even though he has begun shading to very beautiful orange color. No signs of fading or black tipping of the background color has occurred in this animal, as is often the case with Jungle Carpets as they age.

In 1997 I named this exceptional specimen the Jaguar Carpet, which I found to be most appropriate due to its color and pattern.

Thus the Jaguar name was introduced to the herp scene for the very first time.

It was now time to find out if this spontaneous mutation was of a dominant or recessive trait. In 1998 I bred him with an unrelated Coastal female. Unfortunately this resulted in only four good eggs. However, one of the babies turned out to be a true Jaguar Carpet. Now there was no doubt that this was a genetic trait. The background color of this specimen turned completely yellow during its second year and with an unbelievable head pattern.

Using the same breeding pair in 1999 I produced twelve babies. Four were normals and eight were true Jaguars. All of these went to the United States.

The following year I managed to produce approximately 50% normals and 50% Jaguars from two unrelated mcdowelli females. This suggests that the Jaguar gene is of a co-dominant trait.
One female (#2 on the Coastal page) laid 49 eggs, whereas 4 were non-viable. 22 Jaguars and 23 normal sibs was the result from this clutch. Perhaps not so astonishing since the female at the time was 11 feet long and weighing close to 22 pounds, but still a pretty impressive sized clutch.
Thanks to the founder Jaguar male.

Finally, something even more spectacular appeared among the 22 Jags that year, namely the patternless Banana Jaguar Carpet with only a small blotch between her eyes. She was one of a kind, but unfortunately she died in 2002 before she reached the age of two. I have been hoping to produce some new ones ever since, but the large female Coastal has not produced a clutch since.

She was imported to Norway in 1976 when she was only about 4 feet long and today she is a huge monster at close to 13 feet with a weight of over 30 pounds. Her head is as big as my rather large fist and she has a really bad temper to go along with it. I am still hoping every year that she will lay a new clutch, but I am afraid she might have passed her retirement age.

The second female (#1 on my Coastal page) started the Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguar project that year. She was bred to the son of the founder, who I simply call “Junior” and who made his sexual debut quite early. Even though their clutch was small compared to the other one, this breeding pair managed to produce a few Hypo Jaguars including the first Red Hypo Jaguar pair.

The two Red Hypos not only lacked black tipping on the background scales, but also showed no signs of developing black tipping within the blotches. They simply looked amazing…

The background color of the Hypo Jaguar juveniles should slowly start to turn yellow by one year and continue to intensify as they age.

Despite the fact that the founder male did not turn bright yellow until the age of three, it seems like most of the offspring from the hypo bloodline develop the yellow coloration much earlier. The background color of the Red Hypos on the other hand turn into a more white coloration with age, extending from ivory white to cream to a soft yellowish white. As adults they can almost be called white hypos.

Regular Jaguars develop black tipping either on their background scales or within their blotches or both. As you can clearly see on the Regular Jaguar page. This development can start right after their first shed as a juvenile or take up to their second year to develop. Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars do not develop black tipping and that is why I call them hypos, namely due to the fact that these specimens have a reduction in black pigmentation. Even H. Bernard Bechtel, who wrote the book “Reptile and Amphibian Variants”, agrees with me on this point.

It was not until 2003 I did my first Jaguar to Jaguar breeding and from that point on I have had some pretty amazing results as well as producing a few new Jaguar morphs. The following breedings and results have taken place here at my facility since 2003 and up until today.

HYPO JAGUAR x HYPO JAGUAR (3 clutches) = mostly Hypo Jaguars and a few Red Hypos together with normal sibs and some dead Leucists. I also produced the very first Super Hypo from my high yellow Hypo pair in 2003.

The Hypo Jaguars from such a clutch are really high contrast in pattern and color even at birth, especially the ones produced by the breeder pair already mentioned.

The Red Hypos are also unique from this breeding since the background color of the 2003 specimens have turned bright yellow instead of the usual white. A Hypo Tiger Jaguar was produced in 2004. No Regular Jaguars were produced. Since I have only produced small clutches from such breedings due to the fact that close to half of the eggs have gone bad during incubation I do need a perfect clutch in order to iron out the exact % of each morph from such a breeding.

There might also be other hidden morphs.......
I do have such a perfect clutch in the incubator ready to hatch any day now. The results will be updated later.

RED HYPO JAGUAR X RED HYPO JAGUAR (4 clutches) = mostly Red Hypos (including blue tongued and a few red tongued specimens), a few Hypos and sibs, Super Red Hypos and some dead leucists. Two of these leucists stayed alive for a while. No Regular Jaguars were produced.

One of the two clutches I produced this year from such a breeding was finally a perfect 100% clutch (no slugs!) consisting of 21 eggs with the following results:

4 Leucists (dead!)
4 Super Reds (including twins!)
3 Leopard Jaguars - red burgandy phase
1 Leopard Jaguar - super red phase
4 Red Hypos
2 Hypos
4 Normal Sibs


So there you are, a new Jaguar morph can appear if you produce a perfect clutch. The Leopard Jaguar will be updated with pics later. More importantly, what is the actual SUPER morph in the Jaguar trait?
I have never believed it to be the Leucistic Jaguar. Seems to me that the leucist gene is one of many within the Jaguar project, something the results of the breeding above should clearly indicate.

As with “Supers” from other co-dominant mutation breedings the Super usually resembles the original morph, but is a much better looking animal with brighter colors and less pattern. Or with a unique new pattern altogether even though it is easy to see where it came from.

An example of many being the Tiger Retic and the Super Tiger Retic or the Pastel Balls and the Super Pastels. An even better example is the Platty Ball python project. Here you have combinations of Lesser Platty balls producing not only two leucistic forms, but also the Super Lessers.
The Platty obviously has several hidden genes, much like that of the Jaguar Carpet.
With the Leopard Jaguar suddenly appearing I am getting even more confused concerning the Jaguar trait, but for now I am sticking to what I have called the Supers on my website, at least until the opposite has been proven.

More perfect clutches have to be produced before the Jaguar puzzle is in place.

HYPO JAGUAR X RED HYPO JAGUAR (1 clutch 2004) =
2 Red Hypo Jaguars, 3 Super Red Hypo Jaguars, 1 Hypo Jaguar and 2 dead Leucists.
No normal sibs or Regular Jaguars were produced. There were several slugs in this clutch so the result speaks for itself. More clutches needed in order to iron out the possibilities from such a breeding.

REGULAR JAGUAR X REGULAR JAGUAR =
Such a breeding has not taken place at my facility, simply because I have not kept any Regular females. I have concentrated on Hypos due to lack of space.
However, Are Hogner at Oslo Reptile Park has done so and produced the first Tiger Jaguar in 2003. Otherwise I do not have his exact results so this is something I will have to come back to.
Other Jaguar breedings that have taken place since my last update are as follows.


HYPO JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTAL FEMALES =
During the past three seasons I have bred my high yellow Hypo Jaguar male with 3 different unrelated Coastal females. Approximately 50% Jaguars and 50% Normal Sibs was the result, not so strange considering the Jaguar trait is of a co-dominant trait. The hatchlings all looked like Hypos or Red Hypos when they were born, but a few started to develop this scale tipping already after their first shed. While others have taken up to two years to develop such tipping. Even though the amount of black tipping varies from specimen to specimen they do seem to develop this scale tipping with age, either on the background scales or within the blotches or both. Exactly like the Regular Jaguars do.

However, the bright colors of these “intermedia” Jaguars develop at a much earlier stage (usually during their first and second year), much like that of the true Hypo Jaguars. They simply have a much cleaner and high contrast appearance despite of the black tipping. I therefore prefer to call them high contrast Jaguars so they do not get confused with Regular or Hypo Jaguars.

RED HYPO JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTAL FEMALES =
This has not been done at my facility. However, I expect the same results as when breeding a Hypo Jaguar with unrelated Coastal females.

Unless you are lucky enough to own a normal, unrelated Coastal with a hidden hypo gene. Something a US breeder is supposed to have. Just like the normal Coastal female I am fortunate to own without knowing about her “little secret” until she started the Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguar project. New hypo bloodlines are good to find within the Carpet Python world.

I have found that the only way to produce Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars is by breeding Hypo x Hypo, Red Hypo x Red Hypo, Red Hypo x Hypo or Hypo x Normal Sib (from the Hypo/Red Hypo line) and Red Hypo x Normal Sib (from the Hypo/Red Hypo line).

Otherwise, as already mentioned a Coastal with a hidden hypo gene is needed. Someone out there might very well own such a specimen without knowing, even though it is rare.

REGULAR JAGUAR X UNRELATED COASTALS =
As with all Jaguar morphs when bred to a unrelated Coastal you do produce approximately 50% Regular Jaguars and 50% Normal Sibs. However, so far I have been fortunate enough to produce the Banana Jaguar among the Regular Jaguars in the year 2000 and almost another one (with two blotches) the year before, except this specimen managed to drown inside the egg before it was supposed to hatch.

Secondly, the Hypo and Red Hypo project from another unrelated Coastal female the same year. And finally in 2004 the Axanthic Jaguar (3 more Axanthics this year!) from a third unrelated Coastal female.

These three breedings have been a result of breeding 3 separate Regular Jaguar males with 3 normal, unrelated Coastal females (also unrelated to each other). So what is going on? The Jaguar Carpet obviously has multiple hidden genes and depending on what genetic material lies within an unrelated Coastal counterpart you might very well be facing a totally new Jaguar morph.
I guess you could say I have been blessed 3 times already! The fact that it has happened to me does not mean it cannot happen to others also. The next new morph can just as well appear at some other Jaguar owner’s facility.
NORMAL SIB (Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line) X HYPO JAGUAR (1 clutch) =
I produced exactly 12 Sibs, 9 Hypo Jaguars and 3 Red Hypo Jaguars from such a clutch.
The Hypo and Red Hypo Jaguars from such a breeding all look fantastic with no black tipping.

I will be producing more such clutches in order to find out more.


NORMAL SIB X NORMAL SIB (Both from Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line) =
My findings are from two clutches. Only Normal Sibs were produced even though they had various patterns and colors. I now consider the normal sibs from the Hypo/Red Hypo Jaguar line to be most useful since when bred to a Hypo or Red Hypo Jaguar they are in fact capable of producing both of the Hypo Jaguar morphs.

The Leucistic Jaguars are obviously a weak link within the Jaguar trait. So far I have produced a total of 26 dead leucists from the 8 Jaguar x Jaguar clutches mentioned earlier on this page.

One of these leucists hatched by itself and stayed alive for a couple of hours while another one stayed alive for three days within its egg. Are Hogner of Oslo Reptile Park has produced 8 leucists so far from his Regular Jaguar pair. One of these stayed alive for about 26 hours after hatching while another one stayed alive inside the egg for over two days before it died. He has taken video footage of this Leucistic Jaguar while it was alive. You may view this footage on the "Jaguar Photos" page.

From a total of 34 Leucistic Jaguars produced here in Norway (from two different sources) only three have shown any signs of external body abnormalities (kinks etc.). The rest have looked perfect.

So why does the few that hatch by themselves die shortly after? Could it be that their lungs are simply disfunctional during the transition to atmospheric breathing? Or could it be caused by some other internal disorder? I believe the only way to produce a healthy leucistic specimen is to dilute the Jaguar bloodline by several generations and then breed two completely unrelated Jaguars to each other.

On another genetic note. It seems to me that if you breed a Jaguar male with several normal, unrelated Coastal females this might most likely result in an unequal distribution of the different morphs, according to the variations in the genetic material of the various normal Coastal females.

An example might be that I have only produced 3 banded Jaguar specimens (from 3 separate Jaguar morphs) during the course of three years while a US breeder in 2004 produced a clutch from his Red Hypo
Jaguar male to a normal, unrelated female Coastal, whereas most of the hatchlings were banded.

The above statements reflects only on my findings at my facility so far. Breedings will vary of course. There is still a lot to be learnt, but I am slowly learning more each year as far as the Jaguar trait is concerned.
I do not have all the answers. More breeding and perfect clutches are required in order to iron out the possibilities. It seems like an endless quest since it looks like a new Jaguar morph appears almost annually. I am not complaining though.
The Jaguar project is without a doubt the most interesting Carpet Python project around and probably for years to come.

There has been a lot of discussions on Carpet forums whether my Jaguars are actual Coastals or not.
During the 1960’ies and 1970’ies the only Carpet Pythons you could get your hands on here in Europe were Coastals. All of the Carpets I collected at the time were the Brisbane variety.

Their lenghts speak for themselves. Simply the fact that my Coastals have reached lenghts on average of 10-11 feet, with the exceptions of a few 13 footers should be proof enough. My “Big Mamma“ as I call my oldest normal Coastal is now 13 feet. Two of my largest Jaguars are now approximately 10 and 11 feet long.
Do Jungles or Irians reach such sizes?


I had not even heard about Jungle or Irian Carpets when the new reptile law went into effect on January 1st. 1977, making it illegal to import reptiles to Norway. From this date on it was also illegal to own reptiles unless you obtained a dispensation from the Ministry of Agriculture. I do possess such a permit on all my snakes.

My facility is inspected a few times each year by the Norwegian Veterinary authorities. Not only are the python eggs inspected and counted, but also the babies after they hatch. Everything is accounted for and if as much as one animal should die during the year I have to put it in the freezer and report it to the authorities. I also have to keep the empty eggs frozen until the inspector arrives. All the frozen eggs as well as potential dead animals are then handed over to the vet. inspector. These are used in educational purposes or properly disposed of by the authorities.
THAT IS HOW STRICT IT IS HERE IN NORWAY. Be glad you herpers do not live here!

In other words keeping illegal animals at my facility is not worth the risk of having my collection confiscated. The only Carpet Python I have a permit for is the Coastal Carpet (former variegatae, now mcdowelli) and that is the only Carpet specie I intend to keep here in Norway. End of story!

And if you wonder why it was called variegatae back then it was simply because the Morelia “Carpet” group was devided into variegatae (all the Carpets), bredli (Centralians) and spilota (Diamonds). They were not separated into subspecies back then.

So there won’t be any further misunderstandings to the following warning. Two Europeans and one Las Vegas petstore manager tried to pass off their Irian Jaya Carpets as true Jaguars during 2001/2002. I have kept all the correspondence as evidence, just in case I ever needed proof.
NOTE!

Be aware that there are a few Irian Jaya Carpets out there that can be mistaken for true Jaguar Coastals. At least as far as pattern is concerned, but the comparison ends there. Most importantly, the color is totally different.

True Jaguars develop with age a bright yellow/orange background color.
Furthermore, the true Jaguar bloodline is capable of producing several unique Jaguar morphs.
I would therefore simply call these Irian Jayas for so-called "false" Jaguars at best, since they lack the possibilities of true Jaguars. Even though Irian Jaya Carpets are beautiful animals I would not want people to get ripped off, expecting or hoping these to be from my Jaguar bloodline.
I just wanted to clear this up once and for all.

Thank you!
Jan Eric Engell



Text of Jan Eric Engell, Untitled Document​

 

[treeofgreen]

thanks heaps for this!!! great read. So interesting. If you goto that site. Its under construction, but can you see the hypo red jag? WOW never seen one like that before, are they in Aus?

 

[Boidae]

Is the original Jag that Jan produced still alive?

 

[saximus]

Some of the Bredli Jags I've seen are similar to that but I think the one on that page comes from a different "mixture"

 

[Chondrobsessed]

Wow, my head hurts a bit lol, thanks heap for the info! So when did Australia's no import/export laws come into act?

 

[saximus]

It was before Jags were produced. It's pretty much common knowledge that, even though it was never proven, first ones were smuggled in which is one of the many reasons they cause controversy. Either way, they're here now and, for now at least, they're probably the most interesting Carpet morph we have

 

[Chondrobsessed]

Indeed, they are gorgeous! Thanks for all the info, joined the site to learn more about GTP but there is so much to learn about everything on here!

 

[Justdragons]

so nobody has mentioned about the neuro issues? also jag intergrades? i was always under the impression all jags were intergardes for some reason? as far as that write down goes jags are pure coastals.. if they are pure i think i feel a little better towards them. this is a general question not trying to start a fight but can someone tell me alittle more about these issues at all? i dont know any people who breed them to ask?

 

[saximus]

so nobody has mentioned about the neuro issues? also jag intergrades? i was always under the impression all jags were intergardes for some reason? as far as that write down goes jags are pure coastals.. if they are pure i think i feel a little better towards them. this is a general question not trying to start a fight but can someone tell me alittle more about these issues at all? i dont know any people who breed them to ask?

The OP asked for info about the mutation, not the genetic defects, which is probably why nobody mentioned it. From what I've seen, neuro comes in differing levels of severity and can vary from slight head shakes when the animal is excited to full on retardedness that makes them look like a drunk guy trying to stumble home. The neuro issue is considered to be the reason leucistic ("super" or homozygous form) never survive. The way I think of it is that a homozygous Jag basically has twice the Jag genes so the effects of the neuro defects are intensified. So far every leucy has died because of this (unless someone, somewhere is keeping a very big secret).
An intergrade is a completely thing altogether. They are basically just a Carpet which occurs in the area around Northern NSW where Diamond and Coastal territory overlaps. They are commonly called Port Macquarie Carpet Pythons because of the locality where they are found.
Jags started in Coastals but have been crossed with basically every other Carpet species/sub-species which is maybe where you're confused. A "pure" Jag is a Coastal so if an animal is referred to as a Jag it's most likely just Coastal blood. However, if you cross it with something like, say, a Jungle then you get what people refer to as a Jungle Jag. The main problem with crossing them is that, being a co-dominant mutation, you end up with about half the clutch which aren't Jags but are simply just a cross of the original two animals (going with the previous example, Jungle x Coastal) which nobody wants because everybody either wants pretty Jags or "pure" normals. These normal animals are generally referred to as Jab sibs but are essentially no different to a regular sub-species hybrid.
I hope that helps. Someone with more experience will probably come and shoot me down for a few of the points here but that's the answers to your questions as I understand the situation.

 

[thomasssss]

so nobody has mentioned about the neuro issues? also jag intergrades? i was always under the impression all jags were intergardes for some reason? as far as that write down goes jags are pure coastals.. if they are pure i think i feel a little better towards them. this is a general question not trying to start a fight but can someone tell me alittle more about these issues at all? i dont know any people who breed them to ask?

the first jag was a coastal , but since then they have been crossed over many of the carpets so no their not all pure , even some of the "pure coastal " jags , i would be slightly doubtful that they are in fact totally pure now days , but im not saying there arnt a few still out there

and yes as far as i know if it carries the jag gene than its going to have some form of neuro issues

sax beat me to it , and with alot more info aswell , i like threads like these

 

[Justdragons]

cheers guys that helps alot. sorry op for thread hijacking i understand you wanned just info on the jag mutation and if you wish ill start another thread..

Sax and thomassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss (lol i get it like a snake hisssss... ), do the pure jags hold a higher price tag? being a more pure jag would result in more neuro then or is this still all being learned? also what happens to the intergrades nobody wants...? freezer? sorry i honestly dont want to ruffle feathers at all just very curious now..

 

[Chondrobsessed]

Lol it's all good, very interesting topic and lots of knowledgable ppl

 

[thomasssss]

cheers guys that helps alot. sorry op for thread hijacking i understand you wanned just info on the jag mutation and if you wish ill start another thread..

Sax and thomassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss (lol i get it like a snake hisssss... ), do the pure jags hold a higher price tag? being a more pure jag would result in more neuro then or is this still all being learned? also what happens to the intergrades nobody wants...? freezer? sorry i honestly dont want to ruffle feathers at all just very curious now..

yes , the hisss thing kinda was the idea behind it , although i dont think many people get it

cant help on your points about prices etc but your still confused about intergrade , when you cross a python it doesn't become an intergrade , its a cross between whatever the parentage is , intergrade as sax said refers to natural occurring intergrades , as far as i know it only really happens in coastal and diamonds but there might be others in australia

i believe the term your looking for might be hybrid , although im not sure i just call them crosses e.g. , jungle X diamond

 

[PythonLegs]

There's no such thing as a 'jag intergrade'. Sorry to nitpick, but incorrect use of that word bugs me almost as much as people who can't figure, out where to put the,commas in sentences.

 

[saximus]

There's no such thing as a 'jag intergrade'.

There could be if someone crossed a Jag with a Port Mac

 

[Ramsayi]

There's no such thing as a 'jag intergrade'. Sorry to nitpick, but incorrect use of that word bugs me almost as much as people who can't figure, out where to put the,commas in sentences.

You sure your sentence has commas in the correct places?

 

[nervous]

You sure your sentence has commas in the correct places?

I think he is being a smarty pants... well I hope so.

 

[PythonLegs]

You sure your sentence has commas in the correct places?

I'm not, sure, commas always confuse me because I always get them mixed,up with full stops and, DON'T EVEN START ME ON CAPITALS ROFLMFAO.

Off topic much?