GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
Ok cool, I am going to ring the owners today to see how the Diamond is going, I will ask them the brand then
Warning against heat rocks GRAPHIC
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Ok cool, I am going to ring the owners today to see how the Diamond is going, I will ask them the brand then
Heat rocks that are functioning correctly can still be problematic due to hot spots and inconsistencies in the heat given off. As mentioned above a cool reptile does not have the sensory responses of a warm reptile so they can be laying on a 'warm' hot rock not realising that a part of their body is actually burning on one of the hot spots. I dont believe that this is a huge problem and suspect that many people have trouble free experiences with heat rocks but as the problem does exist and there is no way to know whether or not the heat rock you buy is a problem one it is probably not worth the risk. As a retailer I would not like to be on the receiving end of a complaint such as what the OP has experienced!
The problem with the green PVC heat mats that also got a mention in this thread is that the electrical connection that joins the heat mat is not being well protected and it is not difficult to short those mats if you are not careful. Anyone who has had that problem can see this by cutting the mat open in that area and you will see the burned areas at that connection site. The black mats have better protection over that connection which makes them more resilient to incorrect handling.
Let's not continue this myth as it is certainly no longer true if it ever was true. Every brand name company on the shelves here in Australia buys their heating products direct from China from the same manufacturers that the cheapies on ebay come from. Microclimate may be the only exception that I can think of but I have been offered microclimate heat mats from a supplier in China so I suspect that at least their heat mats are made in China. I have no knowledge of where their thermostats are made. So the item you are selling in the brand name package is exactly the same as the product being sold on ebay. A quick check back through threads here at APS alone will show plenty of problems with 'brand name' products getting a mention and certainly no more than non-brand name products. In this thread alone there has been no mention of ebay cheapie heat rocks or mats but a couple of the brand names have been mentioned in relation to these products which just goes to show that problems are not restricted to the ebay cheapies.
Retail shops by their very nature are not going to be able to compete on price but this should not be a reason to suggest that products sold at a cheaper price are no good. Retail shops have a lot of advantages for customers that online sellers cannot offer and I really think that is where you should be concentrating your efforts. You guys are available for the convenience buy and most people are willing to pay a bit more for that convenience. You are able to meet your customers face to face and impart the knowledge that you have on the products you sell and to reassure buyers that they are purchasing the correct product for the correct job. You are also in a better position to handle problems when they do occur as you can help out customers face to face. Finally retail shops have access to all of the brand name companies and all of the products that they offer in their respective ranges so you can provide to your customers pretty much any product they may desire. All of this comes at a price to you which is why you are justified in charging a higher price for your products and I think most customers understand this without the need for an 'us' and 'them' combat with online sellers.
Reptiles4me
Well-Known Member
I would never use heat rocks or recommend them they make me so angry when I see this sort of thing happen.:evil:
i honestly don't know why people buy them. They cause more problems then a curious monitor on a camp site. I hope they stop getting sold.
I hope the snake makes a full recovery. I'm not sure if he will be scarless after burns like that.What a sad story.
i honestly don't know why people buy them. They cause more problems then a curious monitor on a camp site. I hope they stop getting sold.
I hope the snake makes a full recovery. I'm not sure if he will be scarless after burns like that.What a sad story.
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
Is it still alive and looking much better, I do not know the people that well so getting pics isnt all that easy, I will try and get some though.
I found out the brand but I fear posting it may bring on a law suit or similar, it is a very well known brand that is stocked in every major pet store, it was not Exoterra.
I found out the brand but I fear posting it may bring on a law suit or similar, it is a very well known brand that is stocked in every major pet store, it was not Exoterra.
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Having never used a heat rock, I'm curious about one thing ...
- Did the heat rock in question malfuction? Or was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in the Diamond Python?
- Did the heat rock in question malfuction? Or was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in the Diamond Python?
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
Both, the rock should never get hot enough to cause burns and snake lacks the ability to sense dangerous temperatures
Poor Diamond, one of our most beautiful snakes IMO.
Glad I live in a climate where heat lights will do for the cold couple of months each year, you know when it drops to a chilly 14 or 15...lol.
Think mine suffer from wind burn from the fans this tiime of year.
Glad I live in a climate where heat lights will do for the cold couple of months each year, you know when it drops to a chilly 14 or 15...lol.
Think mine suffer from wind burn from the fans this tiime of year.
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
There are two separate issues with heat rocks. Firstly, the poorly manufactured ones can develop hot spots. This can be due to uneven distribution of heating element and thickness of covering material, as mentioned. It can also develop due to a change in the thermal properties of the material over time, as a result of poor quality manufacture (cheap materials). These problems rarely if ever occur with good quality brand items.
The second issue is that the inbuilt thermostat can fail. When this happen the current continues to flow and the rock continues to heat up. Even the quality thermostats can sometimes fail, though rarely. This why it possible to use a quality item for many, many years and never have an issue and someone else with the same brand item isn't so lucky. Two of the leading companies were attempting to design a heat rock that goes cold when it fails. In the last 18 months I have heard nothing on any progress being made. One safeguard, as suggested is to have an additional thermostat controlling the external power to the appliances.
Reptiles will survive cooler conditions for some considerable length of time, without lasting ill effects. However, in conditions of excessive heat, they succumb fairly quickly. As GeckoJosh pointed out, they do not have the same sort of heat sensor in their skin as what we have. The heat has to penetrate to their core receptors at a level that says they are warm enough and can now move off. So with objects that reach really high surface temperatures, like light bulbs and ceramic heat emitters, they can easily develop serious contact burns before they realise it.
One bit of advice. Use the lowest possible wattages to adequately heat an enclosure. That way, if a thermostat fails, you won’t come home to a disaster.
Blue
The second issue is that the inbuilt thermostat can fail. When this happen the current continues to flow and the rock continues to heat up. Even the quality thermostats can sometimes fail, though rarely. This why it possible to use a quality item for many, many years and never have an issue and someone else with the same brand item isn't so lucky. Two of the leading companies were attempting to design a heat rock that goes cold when it fails. In the last 18 months I have heard nothing on any progress being made. One safeguard, as suggested is to have an additional thermostat controlling the external power to the appliances.
Reptiles will survive cooler conditions for some considerable length of time, without lasting ill effects. However, in conditions of excessive heat, they succumb fairly quickly. As GeckoJosh pointed out, they do not have the same sort of heat sensor in their skin as what we have. The heat has to penetrate to their core receptors at a level that says they are warm enough and can now move off. So with objects that reach really high surface temperatures, like light bulbs and ceramic heat emitters, they can easily develop serious contact burns before they realise it.
One bit of advice. Use the lowest possible wattages to adequately heat an enclosure. That way, if a thermostat fails, you won’t come home to a disaster.
Blue
Bananapeel
Very Well-Known Member
I think another problem is that keepers who don't go on these forums or don't see the consequences of these heat rocks fail to understand what problems they can cause. Then they go into a pet shop, see your options of heating and because the rock looks natural they may buy it. Globes coming from the roof don't look natural, nor do tiles sitting on heat cords. So the novice gets a heat rock because they kill 2 birds with one stone. A piece of enclosure decoration and the heating sorted while looking nice. However to people who haven't seen these accidents or read about real experiences they are unaware that the rock can kill 3 birds with one stone. The piece of decor, a pleasing to the eye form of heating and possibly the snake.
jahan
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If a snake lacks the ability to sense dangerous temperatures, then how do
they regulate temp during incubation?
Could it be that the snake fell asleep and didn`t sense the rock getting too hot or was it like NicG said "was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in theDiamond Python?"
What are their heat pits for.
they regulate temp during incubation?
Could it be that the snake fell asleep and didn`t sense the rock getting too hot or was it like NicG said "was the injury a result of sensory deficiency in theDiamond Python?"
What are their heat pits for.
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
The heat pits are there to help them hunt warm blooded animals.
Wild~Touch
Very Well-Known Member
Someone once explained the "burnt snake" thing to me....it's a bit like us getting badly sunburnt ... you don't feel the sun burning at the time...you just suffer the after effects.
A reasonable explanation, hey
paultheo
Active Member
I have a inland python that has scarring from extreme heat, she apparently wrapped around a light without a cage, light went on with the thermostat and got severely burned. I swapped her for a beardie hatchling without hesitation (once i set up the enclosure and instructed the guy on the correct husbandry techniques) she seems perfectly happy,sheds, eats, climbs and breeds just like normal. I named her burnece.
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I don't use heat rocks myself anymore...but I'm wondering just on theory...
In relation to using a thermostat with a heat rock... where would you place/attach the thermo's probe to a heat rock?
In the past I taped the probe to underneath the rock but found the heat emitted from the rock's top surface rendering the probe useless to detect the temp cut-off.
In relation to using a thermostat with a heat rock... where would you place/attach the thermo's probe to a heat rock?
In the past I taped the probe to underneath the rock but found the heat emitted from the rock's top surface rendering the probe useless to detect the temp cut-off.
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
I think you have answered your own question. To be effective it needs to be on the surface that the reptile comes in contact with... basically somewhere on the top surface of the rock.
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
What BLue said is correct but I thought I would add one thing, never use tape in snake enclosures, if it gets stuck to the scales of a snake it can cause horrific damage or even death,use a rubber band or zip tie.
Jackrabbit
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Can't reptiles feel that whatever they are on is a little hot and move off before they get too burnt? I know we put cages around heat lamps but still don't understand why they can't feel when something gets too hot. It seems like they know when they want to warm up but don't know when they are too warm.
PythonLegs
Very Well-Known Member
Ever cooked a a roast, only to find the middle is still raw? The raw bit would be where the nerve endings would be..by the time the snake realises its cooked, it's too damn late. Scales are good for moisture retention, not so good for tactile sensation.
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
Jahan,
You have been given some good answers. I hope you don’t mind if I throw in a few more details.
We have free nerve ending in our skin that detect heat, cold or pain. There are lacking from the skin area snakes. Not a lot of point to having a super-sensitive belly when you crawl around on in through all manner of terrain. It would be difficult enough for us to move through the bush using our backside if we could not stand up. It would pretty much impossible to do so on our belly. It would be far too painful. Yet if we lean again something like a hot fry pan against our abdomen, we tend o be a little slow in reacting and can sustain a nasty burn. Yet put your fingers on something hot and the reaction is almost instantaneous. That is because your fingers have a much higher density of sensors.
Snakes are good at determining their core temperature. When incubating, they are simply maintaining their core temperature in an enclosed space without wander off to bask somewhere. When the surrounding get to the same temperature as their core temperature, the transfer of heat to the surroundings effectively stops and further activity causes a rise in internal temperature. So the stop generating heat until they detect a drop in core temperature, indicating they are no losing heat to the surrounds as they are cooler than the snake. By coiling around the eggs, they are central to the body heat of the mother and least affected by these minor temperature changes.
Thermal pits do not actually detect heat. They detect infrared radiation. Any object that is than its surrounds, gives off IR. So this allows them to sense the presence and direction of warm blooded animals or even ectotherms that have warmed up in the absence of visible light. It does not tell them how hot something is, just where.
Blue
You have been given some good answers. I hope you don’t mind if I throw in a few more details.
We have free nerve ending in our skin that detect heat, cold or pain. There are lacking from the skin area snakes. Not a lot of point to having a super-sensitive belly when you crawl around on in through all manner of terrain. It would be difficult enough for us to move through the bush using our backside if we could not stand up. It would pretty much impossible to do so on our belly. It would be far too painful. Yet if we lean again something like a hot fry pan against our abdomen, we tend o be a little slow in reacting and can sustain a nasty burn. Yet put your fingers on something hot and the reaction is almost instantaneous. That is because your fingers have a much higher density of sensors.
Snakes are good at determining their core temperature. When incubating, they are simply maintaining their core temperature in an enclosed space without wander off to bask somewhere. When the surrounding get to the same temperature as their core temperature, the transfer of heat to the surroundings effectively stops and further activity causes a rise in internal temperature. So the stop generating heat until they detect a drop in core temperature, indicating they are no losing heat to the surrounds as they are cooler than the snake. By coiling around the eggs, they are central to the body heat of the mother and least affected by these minor temperature changes.
Thermal pits do not actually detect heat. They detect infrared radiation. Any object that is than its surrounds, gives off IR. So this allows them to sense the presence and direction of warm blooded animals or even ectotherms that have warmed up in the absence of visible light. It does not tell them how hot something is, just where.
Blue
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