Bush rock removal

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jordo

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Just wanted to raise an issue with removing habitat (rocks and logs) from the wild.
There is a lot of evidence that this can have devastating effects on reptile communities - especially those close to major human populations such as broad-headed snakes (research from Rick Shines lab has indicated bush rock removal being one of the top causes of decline) in the Sydney region.
Bushrock removal - key threatening process listing | NSW Environment & Heritage

I'm writing this because I came across this ad on APS to swap bush rocks:
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/swaps-5394/swap-bush-rock-logs-branches-198490/
I'm not here to accuse this person of any wrong doing so please don't ark up. But I will point out that the suburb is very close to the Blue Mountains National Park. Regardless of where the rocks were collected people will no doubt claim it's from private property anyway.

Basically I want to make people think twice before buying/swapping for this sort of thing - even from well regarded pet stores as they DO go out and collect wood, scorpions etc to sell. I myself use bark for my own personal collection and I justify this because it's not a long lasting shelter in the wild compared to rocks and logs. I urge people to only collect what's necessary for your own personal collections if you feel the need to use natural hides and never to take from protected areas as these are designated sanctuaries for fauna to thrive in. But keep in mind even on private property those shelters are used by native wildlife so keep your impact minimal.

I'd also like the APS mods to have a think about what kind of stance they take on this topic, I was surprised to see this ad was allowed - once again I'm not making any accusations, but if it was up to me I wouldn't encourage trading of these resources.
 
I hardly think taking a dozen rocks from somewhere is going to destroy an eco system. And no, not everyone is doing this.
 
Next you will be questioning the origin of animals for sale.
"That seller lives close to a national park therefore must of poached them"

You sir have too much time on your hands.
 
I completely agree, but if ads start popping up for them and people realise there's a market for it, it could be exploited. As I mentioned certain pet shops are terrible. The problem also arises when people all take a little bit from the same area like Royal NP because it's so close to a major city. Think of it in terms of if you eat one or two fish meals a week of course it's not making an impact, but it's not just you it's a massive proportion of the earths population and that's when it starts to make a difference. Same thing but smaller scale - 1 national park, 1 city. The broadies decline is largely due to people taking rocks for their gardens as well so it's not just herpers but if only a few people change their attitude towards it then it can help.

- - - Updated - - -

Next you will be questioning the origin of animals for sale.
"That seller lives close to a national park therefore must of poached them"

You sir have too much time on your hands.

I didn't make any accusations. And yes you're right, there are people out there that do cash in on our native wildlife.
Guilty as usual, I have some writing that I'm procrastinating getting done. Nothing like a few episodes of Dexter and a new thread on APS to kill some time.
 
Taking things from some private property may be more problematic than taking things from reserves, as stone refuges and the like in compromised environments may be worth more to a relict population than a healthy population in more pristine surrounds. [So make the most of National parks! : ) ]
The borrowing by a small number of reptile enthusiasts does not bother me when compared to the piles of bush rock I have seen in some nurseries. The need to trade such things smacks of lazyness though. Go for a walk outside. Additionally, keeping bush rock as a host for attractive growths is quite hard in an enclosure anyway.
 
All of those rocks that are pictured are available to buy at any landscape supplys or nursery, 99% of them have permits to go into areas that are being cleared for fire breaks and also landslide repairation works, so if someone buys these rocks from them does that mean to your thinking that they cannot then swap them for other things they need, coz i am sure that the national parks people would frown upon someone putting those rocks into the parks and possably speading some sort of disease to native animals Ron
 
I go out and collect scorpions under bush rocks, i have been doing it for about 5 years now, every time i go to locations i know where they would be i can year in year out collect scorpions come back the next year and there would be more than the last time i went collecting at said location, however one of the locations some one else "collected from" all the rocks were smashed and not put the way they should be rolled onto roads etc and there was a massive decline in scorpion/insect/gecko/orange naped snake numbers at said location, not just collecting even just moving/misplacing rocks can have effects on the animals that live under them. Also another one of the locations i was sustainably harvesting from is now a mine so go figure being sustainable does not always pay off.
 
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Next you will be questioning the origin of animals for sale.
"That seller lives close to a national park therefore must of poached them"

You sir have too much time on your hands.

What a great little project, monitoring reptile ads and determining if there is a correlation between a species being found locally and the point of sale...
 
a few reptile keepers taking a few rocks, logs/ branches i very much doubt it effects the eco system. but big companies removing tones of this does.

the only way keepers could damage our native reptiles habitat is if every keeper was taking large quantaties.

i have never taken bush rocks but have taken branches and hollow logs from a friends farm with his permision. i understand there are reptiles on the property, what i took was on the ground, and there was heaps so i doubt my 4-5 branches/ logs did any damage.
 
I totally get what your saying but I think your overreacting a bit. I beleive the majority of this sites users wouldnt take a rock if they found wild life under/near it and I wouldnt imagine their taking rocks/branches by the hundreds. Of course there is going to be a small minority of bad apples but alot of us are also naturists and conservationists even if we do not actively plant trees or donate to said organisations. Some valid points were made about animal shops and nurseries and why should we pay for essentially them doing the same thing collection the goods. The swapping argument was good that surely you can go out and get your own but again on the flip side why not trade your excess stock if that means people arnt going to go out and just collect more.
 
I completely agree, but if ads start popping up for them and people realise there's a market for it, it could be exploited. As I mentioned certain pet shops are terrible. The problem also arises when people all take a little bit from the same area like Royal NP because it's so close to a major city. Think of it in terms of if you eat one or two fish meals a week of course it's not making an impact, but it's not just you it's a massive proportion of the earths population and that's when it starts to make a difference. Same thing but smaller scale - 1 national park, 1 city. The broadies decline is largely due to people taking rocks for their gardens as well so it's not just herpers but if only a few people change their attitude towards it then it can help.


Herpers taking a rock here or there(for the microscopic minority of herpers that do) can hardly be compared to many millions of individuals fishing.
As people have stated, its generally the landscaping industry taking from the environment - and they do this with government granted permits, on sites which have had impact assessments done, recycling of natural materials or natural disaster clearings and such.

If you were really concerned about rocks being taken and destroying environments try focussing your thoughts on open cut mining and the like - that has far more severe consequences on native habitats than personal rock collecting.

Take a chill pill.
 
I've got lots of deadwood, although not quite as much since a bushfire went through before Xmas and heaps of Ironbark scrap from some clearing on my 100 acres if anyone wants some bits.
 
No need for pills, I'm calm :)
Firstly the fish example was just an example, I'm comparing Sydney/Royal NP to a wider scale example that's obviously not the same, sorry for the confusion ;)
There is no evidence anywhere on the number of reptile keepers that take rocks and logs from the wild (whether it's on public or private land), I wasn't trying to make any inferences about this and I suggest you shouldn't either.

Of course mining and landscaping are bigger issues. If you could re-read my initial post you would see that I just want people to think about this issue, as small as it may be, to make a little difference and provoke a bit of thought about it.

I agree that it's better to take your own rocks than pay for them, but as long as it's done in a sustainable manner (don't take too much from the one area). I don't think it's necessary for people to be selling or trading natural refuges, if people just take enough for themselves this wouldn't happen.

I'm just stating this as it is, not making any attacks or inferring that it's a HUGE problem that's going to lead to the demise of all native Australian fauna, I'm just bringing it up as something to think about, that's all...
 
No need for pills, I'm calm :)
Firstly the fish example was just an example, I'm comparing Sydney/Royal NP to a wider scale example that's obviously not the same, sorry for the confusion ;)
There is no evidence anywhere on the number of reptile keepers that take rocks and logs from the wild (whether it's on public or private land), I wasn't trying to make any inferences about this and I suggest you shouldn't either.

Of course mining and landscaping are bigger issues. If you could re-read my initial post you would see that I just want people to think about this issue, as small as it may be, to make a little difference and provoke a bit of thought about it.

I agree that it's better to take your own rocks than pay for them, but as long as it's done in a sustainable manner (don't take too much from the one area). I don't think it's necessary for people to be selling or trading natural refuges, if people just take enough for themselves this wouldn't happen.

I'm just stating this as it is, not making any attacks or inferring that it's a HUGE problem that's going to lead to the demise of all native Australian fauna, I'm just bringing it up as something to think about, that's all...

Agreed, but I can't see how the herp community in any way would effect it so much that it's not sustainable with absolutely no conservation effort.
 
What a great little project, monitoring reptile ads and determining if there is a correlation between a species being found locally and the point of sale...

Already on it.

And I have all the time in the world.
 
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