Gastrointestinal Flora in Captive Snakes

[cagey]

I was reading some articles the other day regarding the use of faecal cultures in humans to restore gastrointestinal flora that are eliminated after antibiotic use and also as a potential method of controlling some multi-drug resistance bacteria and it started me thinkig about the gastointestinal flora and gut health of my snakes.

Given that my snakes were raised in relatively pristine conditions and fed food raised in relatively pristine conditions what is the status of their gastrointestinal flora relative to a wild snake and, if there is a difference (likely), does this impact on the long-term health of the snake.

Secondly, if gastrointestinal flora is leas than optimal, is there something that could be injected into their food that could contribute to rectifying this.

Thanks for any informed commentary or pointing to other references.

 

[Nighthawk]

There is a product on the market, engineered by Sonia Dewdney in SA, I can't remember the precise name of it at the moment but I'll get back to you on that...

 

[mikey_mike]

Do your snakes display any evidence of gastrointestinal disease?

If it's not broke don't fix it.

I think you're discussing a human "poo transplant" which is usually used to treat a nasty bacterial infection that sometimes develops after prolonged antibiotics- C. diff. Anyone wanting this treatment without gastrointestinal disease is at the least a little odd.

 

[Nighthawk]

It's called Nutribac. It's basically a supplement for reptiles and amphibians, used to improve appetite and to replenish intestinal microflora. I reckon it would be a good thing for after surgeries and antibiotics, and we've gotten a non-feeding coastal back to eating using it. You only need the tiniest amount on their food items, literally a gram if that.

 

[mikey_mike]

I would have thought consuming the entire gastrointestinal tract of a rodent would supply whatever microbes were required, but I'm not pushing alternative therapies for reptiles and amphibians - one product suits entirely different creatures how convenient. Not sure why it's not also marketed for primates - we're no more closely related to amphibians than are pythons.

Not meaning to disregard your personal tale of success, but thought I'd share an unrelated anecdote.

Coming back from Yuendumu in a light aircraft recently we were dismayed to discover that the undercarriage wouldn't descend. The manual winch to lower the undercarriage wouldn't turn and everyone was feeling a little anxious.one of the nurses helpfully passes around some Bachs Rescue Remedy, shortly after which I realized we'd been winding the winch the wrong way. No one died in a fiery tangle of twisted metal - definitive proof that homeopathy works.

Why not reiki your reptile?

 

[wokka]

I notice we are not over-run with old snakes in the wild which suggests many die along the way. Perhaps some of the deaths in the wild come from eating food from non pristine scources. In captivity it is probably good to vary diet if possible, as I am sure say chickens supply some secret herbs and spices that rodents do not. Dont ask me what but a quail here, or a rabbit there, should provide slightly different dietary requirements.

 

[Nighthawk]

He asked a question, I gave an answer. I never said we use it all the time, and I never recommended constant use. No need to get condescending. Besides, why not actually look it up before accusing the product of being wishy-washy? The woman who engineered it is a qualified biologist and devoted herpetologist, not a hippie.

 

[mikey_mike]

I'm not sure that being qualified and being a hippie are mutually exclusive. I'm qualified for some stuff...

As far as actually doing some research- not really required is it? I'm quite willing to be told otherwise, but I think I've come to terms with this.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Nighthawk, I did not feel the response was condescending. It was based on a hypothesis that had no factual basis to support it, which was acknowledged.

This is an area that has fascinated me for quite some time. Whenever I have researched, all I have got is known examples of how the parental gut flora has been passed on to the young. In every case this has been where the parents are involved in post-natal care of the young and therefore usually mammals. Bubby lick mum’s bottom at some stage and the transfer is complete.

I have been incredibly frustrated in trying to find information on animals that show no parental care. There is a possibility that some flora may be picked up from dietary items. Unfortunately I have yet to find research evidence to support this. If anyone has come across any research in this area I would love to know about it.

I have read here that use of raw yoghurt has been successful in stimulating appetite in reptiles that were not eating. The presumption was that it added to the gut fauna to get the digestive system functioning normally.

I have to say that I am very much intrigued by Nighthawk’s post and intend to follow it up in the near future. It exudes genuine promise from my perspective.

Blue

 

[wokka]

If you are talking about appetite stimulation i have found pink rabbits useful in getting reluctant Morelia feeding.

 

[geckodan]

The use of probiotics for stimulating/repopulating gut flora is well recognised but has severe limitations in non domestic species. The major issue is quite simple - we are trying to replace a gut flora that may be specific to that species - nobody can expect an omnivorous skink to have the same digestive gut flora as a reptile specialist burtons legless lizard let alone a mammal feeding snake. We have the same issue with birds - even finches and parrots have vastly different gut flora. Trying to find a product to suit all is a struggle. Most products are based on mammalian oragnisms and may not contain a single organism that will survive in a reptilian gut let alone temporarily colonise (although even some good probiotic bugs will only colonise for 24 hours or so). The product needs to be specifically designed for reptiles using bacterial organisms that are ubiquitous to the gut flora of the most common species across the diversity of reptiles. Without that, the product is of little use. I have read the info on Nutribac and still have no idea what bacterial colonies are used in it's makeup. The website steers around this issue at every point. A good patented product will list the exact bacterial species involved - this information is not provided for this product so a judgement cannot be made.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I'm sure that even qualified biologists who are devoted herpetologists, hippie or not, are interested in making money if there's an easy way. Most of these "husbandry aids" such as the crap marketed to "ease shedding" are sold to novices for no reason except to line the pockets of the makers & sellers. Most of the "problems" they are supposed to fix are the result of poor understanding of reptiles and their husbandry, and until those things are fixed, the problems will persisit.

I'm not sure what flora are required to digest/absorb yolk after it has been drawn into the snake gut after pipping, but the very first meal of a mouse of any kind will deliver a raft of germs from the skin & gut of the mouse into the gut of a young snake, whether the rodent is wild or captive bred. Commercially bred rodents are not bacteria free, as the OP is suggesting.

Jamie

 

[eipper]

Nighthawk,

Care to elaborate, can you provide or access the animal ethics approval numbers and permit details which provide this "herpetologist" license to conduct experiments. Surely any qualified self respecting biologist would gain approval before any experimentation. Where the findings published in a peer reviewed journal?

If no to any of the above this person should not be conducting any further "research".

I would of been checking out those details prior to feeding my snake some random general culture for reasons Danny outlined.

cheers
scott

 

[cement]

I've often wondered whether their gut flora is always present.
Does it disappear through winter and prolonged times of famine, and build up for spring and summer through the introduction of a food item?

 

[Bluetongue1]

It is a clear that nutritional input effects the prevalence of particular microflora. For example, proteins, fatty acids, specific polysacchrides each engender a preponderance of different bacterial groups. So while gross diets may vary, much of the nature of the established microflora would seem to depend upon those foods and digestive products entering the large intestine, where the vast majority is to be found. No doubt differences in the chemical and physical environment have their influence as well. But do feel the variation is nowhere as great as it may seem at first glance.

I am intrigued by the process of innoculation. For example, a vaginal birth baby usually takes about I month for the microflora to establish. A C-section baby normally takes about 6 months. The C-section child does not have the same opportunity to contact the mother’s gut flora as does a normal birth. Yet it seems they can catch up in time. This would indicate that the source of the colonizing (no pun intended) bacteria is the external environment. So what stops their natural recolonization where people have previously been on heavy antibiotics? Applied to reptiles, if you have an animal that is not eating and you suspect loss of gut flora, will keeping another of the same species or similar, in physical contact, have a beneficial effect in this regard?

If you assume for a moment that Nutribac does help re-establish gut flora... The question is how does it do that? Does it contain bacterial spores? Or is it providing an optimum chemical environment to populations already present but in low numbers, a kick start?

I do agree that a product should be subject to controlled testing before public claims and sales take place. (If only!) However, I see no problem with home based experiments that do not involve potential harm to animals. If you change the substrate in a cage to something you have not used before or to trial a new product, strictly speaking you are experimenting with live animals. The same could be said of food items, heating appliances, cage design and so forth. You don’t go seeking approval from an ethics committee first. Through personal investigations those that think outside the box come up with new and sometimes successful approaches. As a result others can potentially benefit. I think this sort of investigating should be encouraged, not slammed. Validation is a separate issue.

An excellent question there Cement!

Blue

 

[mikey_mike]

Just one last comment. I see a fundamental design flaw in an appetite stimulant that must be delivered via adding to a normal food item.

Apart from the obvious difficulty in it's use in animals that need it the most, there's the difficulty of assessing efficacy- how much did the rodent contribute to any recovery / were things already improving to the extent that the animal was eating anyway?

I reckon you'd either need loads of experience with the product in problem feeders or randomized controlled trials to sort this one out.