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ronhalling

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I am so confused (sighhhhh) with all these new minimum enclosure sizes being released by NPWS i do not really know which way is up, i am trying to read the bloody table they have put out and it makes about as much sense as a yidish menu in a chinese restaurant i have posted the relevant page here and hilighted the size they say is minimum but to me it looks to be excessive, on 1 hand it says .625² being iether measured floor space or wall space for a "D" class Python, according to them measuring floor space in my new enclosure it does not meet minimum req but measuring wall space it does not ie floor space = 1000 x 400=.400 but wall = 1000 x 770= .770 well over the .625² for the requirements. however looking at the table at the end of the new stuff it says the enclosure must be 1250 x 500 but says nothing about back wall size, someone please shoot me..................................Ron
 

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only focus on appendix A as appendix B doesn't get referred to anywhere in the document. Hope that helps.
 
Appendix B is a guideline to help give you a starting point if you can't understand how to design/calculate proper dimensions to comply with the regs. In almost every example in appendix B, the smaller dimension listed in the example is the smallest allowable dimension for that class. In the case of class D, you cannot have any floor dimension smaller than 500 as it would go against paragraph 4.3.1.1. So your enclosure is too small purely on that one dimension. The wall area is fine though. That is my interpretation anyway...
 
I look at it this way....

From a snake perspective (and in this case I will refer to Class D Climbers - Adults) there are really only 2 things you need to have.

1. Either a wall or floor area equal to or greater than 0.625m Sq (regardless of dimensions - pending No. 2 below)

2. The smallest dimension must not be smaller than 20% of the length of the snake that it houses.

The area measurement is the easiest one - for a climber it states that there must be room to 'climb' so it will be assumed that the enclosure will be taller than it is wide. Multiply your height and width - if it exceeds 0.625m Sq you are on a winner so far.....

Now you have the height and width......How much 'depth' do you need? The COPS say that the smallest dimension should be no shorter than 20% of the length of the snake it holds. If your snake is 2.5 metres long (or likely to grow that big and you want it ti love in this enclusrure) then 20% of 2500 = 500mm. Therefore, your depth cannot be less than 500mm.

The above assumes that your smallest dimension will be your 'depth'. If your width is less than 500 then it will become your 'smallest' dimension and will need adjusting accordingly - this affecting your area measurement.

You can make any size, or combination of sizes that you like, providing the floor (or wall for a climber) meets or exceeds the minimum area for the Class, and the smallest dimension is no smaller than 20% of the length of the snake it holds.

In your example above Ron, you comply with area for Class D Climber, but your smallest dimension is 400mm so your biggest snake it could legally house would be 2 metres. (400mm is 20% of 2 metres). If you were inspected and had a Class D snake less than 2 metres in that enclosure there would be little they could do - you comply with 4.3.1.1.

4.3.2.1 says the animal sizes in Table 2 are a guide only and adjustments should be made for individual snakes - I would suggest that this means if your snake is larger or smaller than their 'average' sizes, you will need to adjust your enclosure size accordingly in alignment with 4.3.1.1 - Basically, get your wall/floor area correct, and make sure your smallest dimension is not smaller than 20% of the length of the snake it holds.

Simple eh? :lol: (its ok...I read and interpret documents for a living)
 
Cool, thanks Rob, i know you and i talked about it, so i should not have gone back and re read the "COPS" that is what confused me. I should just listen to you from now on in these matters, I might have worldly smarts but you have smarts that i can only dream of having, thank you for taking the time to explain it "again" for my benefit..........................Ron
 
so anyone feel like making things really easy for me (as i know plenty of people would have worked it out themselves by now ;) ) and telling me what size enclosures ( in millimetres not meters or sq meters:) ) are needed for class c and class d (for womas and coastals ) just want to check that my current enclosures will make the cut
 
so anyone feel like making things really easy for me (as i know plenty of people would have worked it out themselves by now ;) ) and telling me what size enclosures ( in millimetres not meters or sq meters:) ) are needed for class c and class d (for womas and coastals ) just want to check that my current enclosures will make the cut

There is no such thing as a 'size' for an enclosure. There is a minimum shortest dimension based on the length of the snake within, and a minimum floor area (or wall area for climbers) depending on the class of animal. It can be any size as long as the area is met or exceeded, and the shortest dimension is not less that 20% of the length of the snake within.

Give the dimensions of your enclosure and I can tell you which Class and up to what size you can keep in it. Alternatively, tell me your enclosure dimensions and the type/length of snake in it and I can tell you if it complies.

The COPS are based around area and shortest dimension length in relation to snake length - not specific enclosure dimensions.
 
There is no such thing as a 'size' for an enclosure. There is a minimum shortest dimension based on the length of the snake within, and a minimum floor area (or wall area for climbers) depending on the class of animal. It can be any size as long as the area is met or exceeded, and the shortest dimension is not less that 20% of the length of the snake within.

Give the dimensions of your enclosure and I can tell you which Class and up to what size you can keep in it. Alternatively, tell me your enclosure dimensions and the type/length of snake in it and I can tell you if it complies.

The COPS are based around area and shortest dimension length in relation to snake length - not specific enclosure dimensions.
youve got me kinda confuse now , my understanding was that they had grouped each species into classes based on their maximum length and that each of these classes had a minimum enclosure size , is this wrong or .....

anyways im keeping 2 womas that are at the moment only around a meter but that will change their tanami locality , their currently in enclosures 1200mmL X 500MM H X 500 D

then my coastal who is in a 1200H X 1300 L X 450 D and he is around 1.5 m long himself but is growing very slowly (he actually hasnt put on any noticeable length in a while ) as i got him off another guy at around 4 year old and he had been a bit underfed so dont know if he will ever become the biggest he could be

the rest of my snakes are still hatchies in suitable tubs
 
hey thomasssss, working on what Rob has told me both your enclosures are fine, ie your Woma could be 2.5m and still good (20% x 2.5m - 500mm) which is the shortest measurement of your current Woma enclosure, but remember if you are keeping 2 Woma's in there it needs to be 50% bigger, your coastal could be 2m and still good (20% x 2m = 400mm) the shortest measurement in your coastal enclosure is 450mm..................Ron
 
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youve got me kinda confuse now , my understanding was that they had grouped each species into classes based on their maximum length and that each of these classes had a minimum enclosure size , is this wrong or .....

anyways im keeping 2 womas that are at the moment only around a meter but that will change their tanami locality , their currently in enclosures 1200mmL X 500MM H X 500 D

then my coastal who is in a 1200H X 1300 L X 450 D and he is around 1.5 m long himself but is growing very slowly (he actually hasnt put on any noticeable length in a while ) as i got him off another guy at around 4 year old and he had been a bit underfed so dont know if he will ever become the biggest he could be

the rest of my snakes are still hatchies in suitable tubs


Are both your womas in the one tank? If they are separate tanks them those sizes are fine from my understanding.

Your coastal enclosures seems to small to me. They are a class D and the minimum a side of the enclosure can be is 500mm so even though the length and the width in square metres covers the size required your depth 450 is too small.

This is from my understand of the code. Don't quote me on it
 
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hey thomasssss, working on what Rob has told me both your enclosures are fine, ie your Woma could be 2.5m and still good (20% x 2.5m - 500mm) which is the shortest measurement of your current Woma enclosure, your coastal could be 2m and still good (20% x 2m = 400mm) the shortest measurement in your coastal enclosure is 450mm..................Ron
ohk cheers , i kinda get whats going on with it now , ive only skim read the COP and just looked at the graphs on the bottom which is why i thought they had been grouped into enclosure sizes

womafan , see the key to what i typed their about my womas was "their currently kept in enclosure'S ​" , thats the plural of enclosure (and im terrible at grammar) i personally dont agree with keeping any species togethr except for breeding purposes , i have made that pretty clear in past threads when the subject has come up , but cheers for the heads up
 
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youve got me kinda confuse now , my understanding was that they had grouped each species into classes based on their maximum length and that each of these classes had a minimum enclosure size , is this wrong or .....

anyways im keeping 2 womas that are at the moment only around a meter but that will change their tanami locality , their currently in enclosures 1200mmL X 500MM H X 500 D

then my coastal who is in a 1200H X 1300 L X 450 D and he is around 1.5 m long himself but is growing very slowly (he actually hasnt put on any noticeable length in a while ) as i got him off another guy at around 4 year old and he had been a bit underfed so dont know if he will ever become the biggest he could be

the rest of my snakes are still hatchies in suitable tubs

No, each Class has a minimum floor (or wall if a climber) surface area (note this is different to enclosure 'size') and a maximum snake length based on the smallest dimension of the enclosure. Several enclosure 'sizes' will have the same area, this is why I say there is no such thing as one enclosure 'size'. Lets look at your enclosures for example:

Your Woma's enclosures have a floor area of 0.6m sq (1.2 x .5). A Woma is a Class C Python requiring a minimum 0.4m Sq m so the area of your enclosure will legally hold a Woma providing the actual snake meets the 20% rule. The 20% rule says that the smallest dimension must not be less than 20% of the snakes length. Your smallest dimension is 0.5m - so the biggest Woma you can legally keep in this enclosure is 0.5 x 5 = 2.5 metres. You can keep your Woma in this enclosure until it is 2.5 metres long.

Your Coastal is a Class D climber....so you can use the floor or the wall as your 'area' measurement. Your largest area is your rear wall so 1.2 x 1.3 = 1.56 square metres. The COPS say a minimum of 0.6 square metres so you romp this requirement in. For your '20%' rule you need to multiply your smallest dimension by 5 to determine the largest snake it can legally hold. Your smallest dimension is your width at 450mm so 0.45 x 5 = 2.25 metres.

In summary, your Woma enclosures comply with Class C providing they do not hold a snake larger than 2.5 metres. They are not large enough to comply with Class D should you ever wish to put adult Class D snakes in them.

Your Coastal enclosure complies with Class D (also meets Class E if you fancy an Olive or a Scrubby) providing it does not hold a snake larger than 2.25 metres.

I have included my calcs for 2 reasons - Others can see how it is applied, and others can check my logic to see that I got it right! :D

Usual disclaimer applies - I am not the DEH and this is my interpretation and understanding of the COPS
 
womafan , see the key to what i typed their about my womas was "their currently kept in enclosure'S ​" , thats the plural of enclosure (and im terrible at grammar) i personally dont agree with keeping any species togethr except for breeding purposes , i have made that pretty clear in past threads when the subject has come up , but cheers for the heads up

ok so I missed that part of your post no need too carry on the way you did. I didn't accuse you of keeping them together I asked a simple question.

Might think twice about helping you out next time if that's going to be your reply.

I still think the coastal enclosure is too small due to the 450mm being under the 500mm minimum. I'm pretty sure in another post national parks made a comment about not actually measuring the snakes so they will probably be going off the minimum sizes that are in the code.

Im sure other people will comment and advise what they think.
 
Are both your womas in the one tank? If they are separate tanks them those sizes are fine from my understanding.

Your coastal enclosures seems to small to me. They are a class D and the minimum a side of the enclosure can be is 500mm so even though the length and the width in square metres covers the size required your depth 450 is too small.

This is from my understand of the code. Don't quote me on it

The 500mm is becoming a common belief. From what I read from the document this is purely a recommendation based on the average sizes of specimens they list. They state that the measurements in that table are based on 'average' animals and should be adjusted for size.

4.3.1.1 clearly states the minimum dimension as a percentage (20%) of the snake in which it houses - the enclosure sizes given in Table B are recommendations only based on their 'average' sizes stated. 450mm still complies if the snake is not as big as their 'average' and I am confident it would be ruled in your favour if contested. It is a no brainer when there is a clause specifically written to cover it.

People are becoming too focused on Table B and not reading the actual COPS and standards to see how they were derived in my opinion. Table B is causing more confusion than anything else.

Would be interesting to get an interpretation....if they intended it to be a minimum 500mm they should re-write 4.3.1.1 to make reference to minimum sizes.
 
No, each Class has a minimum floor (or wall if a climber) surface area (note this is different to enclosure 'size') and a maximum snake length based on the smallest dimension of the enclosure. Several enclosure 'sizes' will have the same area, this is why I say there is no such thing as one enclosure 'size'. Lets look at your enclosures for example:

Your Woma's enclosures have a floor area of 0.6m sq (1.2 x .5). A Woma is a Class C Python requiring a minimum 0.4m Sq m so the area of your enclosure will legally hold a Woma providing the actual snake meets the 20% rule. The 20% rule says that the smallest dimension must not be less than 20% of the snakes length. Your smallest dimension is 0.5m - so the biggest Woma you can legally keep in this enclosure is 0.5 x 5 = 2.5 metres. You can keep your Woma in this enclosure until it is 2.5 metres long.

Your Coastal is a Class D climber....so you can use the floor or the wall as your 'area' measurement. Your largest area is your rear wall so 1.2 x 1.3 = 1.56 square metres. The COPS say a minimum of 0.6 square metres so you romp this requirement in. For your '20%' rule you need to multiply your smallest dimension by 5 to determine the largest snake it can legally hold. Your smallest dimension is your width at 450mm so 0.45 x 5 = 2.25 metres.

In summary, your Woma enclosures comply with Class C providing they do not hold a snake larger than 2.5 metres. They are not large enough to comply with Class D should you ever wish to put adult Class D snakes in them.

Your Coastal enclosure complies with Class D (also meets Class E if you fancy an Olive or a Scrubby) providing it does not hold a snake larger than 2.25 metres.

I have included my calcs for 2 reasons - Others can see how it is applied, and others can check my logic to see that I got it right! :D

Usual disclaimer applies - I am not the DEH and this is my interpretation and understanding of the COPS
cheers mate , makes sense now good to know they all meet their sizes , particularly the womas , i have bigger better plans for the coastals enclosure so that shouldnt matter to much
 
The 500mm is becoming a common belief. From what I read from the document this is purely a recommendation based on the average sizes of specimens they list. They state that the measurements in that table are based on 'average' animals and should be adjusted for size.

4.3.1.1 clearly states the minimum dimension as a percentage (20%) of the snake in which it houses - the enclosure sizes given in Table B are recommendations only based on their 'average' sizes stated. 450mm still complies if the snake is not as big as their 'average' and I am confident it would be ruled in your favour if contested. It is a no brainer when there is a clause specifically written to cover it.

People are becoming too focused on Table B and not reading the actual COPS and standards to see how they were derived in my opinion. Table B is causing more confusion than anything else.

Would be interesting to get an interpretation....if they intended it to be a minimum 500mm they should re-write 4.3.1.1 to make reference to minimum sizes.

It makes sense what your saying about the actual snake housed and which it says in 4.3.1.1.

I personally would prefer to have at least the minimum size they talk about that way if they simply measure the tank all should be good and you don't have to get out your snake and hold it so it can be measured. That brings up other issues as mentioned before like quarantine.

Ive got two WA womas which don't get as big as the maximum size they use but I'm still using here maximum as I guide so there is no concern if my snakes get slightly bigger.
 
ok so I missed that part of your post no need too carry on the way you did. I didn't accuse you of keeping them together I asked a simple question.

Might think twice about helping you out next time if that's going to be your reply.

I still think the coastal enclosure is too small due to the 450mm being under the 500mm minimum. I'm pretty sure in another post national parks made a comment about not actually measuring the snakes so they will probably be going off the minimum sizes that are in the code.

Im sure other people will comment and advise what they think.
settle mate , i was actually laughing when i first read what you had posted as im against it myself , and dont try to be so innocent yourself you just abruptly said " if they are separate them" no explanation as to why or anything , what if i was a newbie i would of liked a bit of an explanation , you might have come across as rude yourself never know

and the coastal will very soon be in a larger enclosure , the reason it is only 450D is that it was made from scrap melamine (that was only 450 wide ) and a house window in a hurry as he wasn't exactly a planned edition
 
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