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longqi

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Bit of discussion about training snakes in another thread about this

So lets throw it open to debate

Hopefully the answers will be more than yes or no
 
I think threy can learn a behaviour or reaction to a behaviour eg that article someone posted about the gaboon viper. I also think they can learn routine but good luck getting them to do something they dont want to do.

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Becca-Marie;. I also think they can learn routine but good luck getting them to do something they dont want to do. Sent from my LG-P690f using Tapatalk 2[/QUOTE said:
Most hatchies dont want to be touched. ie something they dont want to do??
but those same snakes turn into mrs cuddly if treated correctly??
 
Agree with Becca Marie that routine is what they are more prone to learning. It would be something to see though; Tai's doing a slalom time trials.
 
That is true I meant an adult snake. I think they can learn behaviours but your not going to smack it on the nose if it doesnt do what you want. If it wants to be left alone its going to do its best job to let you know that.

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There is a huge difference between training and response behaviour. For instance a dog will learn to sit for food if it is trained. Trained behaviour is a direct result of the repetition of an exercise until it is done inherently or on one command. reward is usually the basis for speedy training. This can either be by positive reinforcement or treating. Snakes however, do not "train" easily. Some snakes will hold their defecation/urates until they are released onto grass and some owners thinks they have "trained" their snake to only wee or poo outside their enclosure. The fact is the snake, when outside and wriggling, is using all muscles the way nature intended rather than in the confined space of most enclosures. The wriggle/muscle action assists in the snake almost instantly releasing the waste material. As longqi said above, hatchys react to being touched by striking, head-butting and wriggling (or all three at the same time!!). When they are constantly handled firmly but gently and re-directed to where YOU want them to be, they settle down as you are no longer posing a threat to them and they get used to it. And that's the difference between training and learned behaviour - trained behaviour is inherent and instant after a given command (ie: SIT/STAY), a snake can't hear or recognise hand signals but it can remember how it has been handled, picked up, re-directed etc and therefore learns to react passively (in most instances anyway!). Your thoughts???

PS: I'm also a professional dog obedience trainer in my "spare" time, and have been a dog behaviourist for some twenty-five years...:)
 
There is a huge difference between training and response behaviour. For instance a dog will learn to sit for food if it is trained. Trained behaviour is a direct result of the repetition of an exercise until it is done inherently or on one command. reward is usually the basis for speedy training. This can either be by positive reinforcement or treating. Snakes however, do not "train" easily. Some snakes will hold their defecation/urates until they are released onto grass and some owners thinks they have "trained" their snake to only wee or poo outside their enclosure. The fact is the snake, when outside and wriggling, is using all muscles the way nature intended rather than in the confined space of most enclosures. The wriggle/muscle action assists in the snake almost instantly releasing the waste material. As longqi said above, hatchys react to being touched by striking, head-butting and wriggling (or all three at the same time!!). When they are constantly handled firmly but gently and re-directed to where YOU want them to be, they settle down as you are no longer posing a threat to them and they get used to it. And that's the difference between training and learned behaviour - trained behaviour is inherent and instant after a given command (ie: SIT/STAY), a snake can't hear or recognise hand signals but it can remember how it has been handled, picked up, re-directed etc and therefore learns to react passively (in most instances anyway!). Your thoughts???

This is what I kinda meant but I am hopeless with words.

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In the context of reptiles, and this is purely my opinion only, I welcome sensible and focused discussion on the point - I don't think we can define "training" as applicable to reptiles or snakes in particular. My biggest BHP will seek me out of a room of other people, purely because she has a memory of my scent (I think). But is that me training her to come to me, or is it her sense of smell and memory guiding her to the person who handles her? When an owner opens an enclosure and the snake comes out and climbs aboard, is that training or learned behaviour? I'm happy to let people think they have "trained" their pets, what harm can it do? They're happy and obviously happy with their animal's response and that leads to better animal husbandry so I'm not going to argue with that!!!
 
The definition of 'training' is the key to the answer. You can condition behaviours to get a predictable response to a defined stimulus. That is my definition of training. This works for snakes, but takes a long time and is much more difficult than training a person or dog - animals with a larger behaviour repertoire and a wider range of positive and negative stimuli to choose from. The closer your 'training' is to natural behaviours and stimuli, the easier it will be. I train people (a teacher) and dogs, but have also trained my snakes to a small extent. I do not try to make them do tricks like my dogs, but they have learned to respond to defined stimuli. The best example of this would be my male woma. I feed him by placing a thawed rat on his basking tile and then tapping the side of the cage near the rat. He has learned that this means food, so will emerge from his hide on the other side of the cage, wagging his tail and proceed to the tile. He's still learning not to be distracted by anything outside the enclosure, but he does make a rapid and predictable response to a defined stimulus.
 
I think they have much better eyesight than we give them credit for

If only signals were used from hatchy size could a snake learn to recognise hand signals?
 
I too do not think a snake can be trained in the sense of the word. Yes it can learn things and also do not really care if someone thinks they have "trained" their snake to poo outside but think it is pointless to convince someone that they can train their bhp to not eat a small mammal. I can only really see that ending badly and no real good coming of it.
 
I think they have much better eyesight than we give them credit for

If only signals were used from hatchy size could a snake learn to recognise hand signals?
Perhaps you could use hand signals, but a scent signal would be more natural and meaningful to a snake. You would have to create a very definite hand signal that was only used in one context. We tend to flap our hands around too much for this to work for a snake. Mammals and birds are much better at subtle hand signals. Dogs ignore 90% of what we say because we talk too much they watch us closely and respond accordingly, which is why many people think that dogs know what we are thinking. Nonsense! They have been selected for thousands of years to respond appropriately to our actions.
 
Agree with Becca Marie that routine is what they are more prone to learning. It would be something to see though; Tai's doing a slalom time trials.

Hahahaha I can see it now - Timmy the Taipan, with handler yelling "Go Timmy, in-out, in-out, in-out good boy Timmy" and the judges standing tippy toe'd on a table with a stop watch!!!!
 
I don't know if it is something my Stimsons has learnt but here we go; it is getting colder so I dropped his temps on the hot spot down to 31 but yet the hide that is like a little hut is two thirds to the cool side from the warm side. the hide is impossible to get him out of, it's like a tree hollow with a very small opening. he always goes in there, but he didn't like going in there for a long time. he is a very docile snake and is great with handling but it's like he knows that once he's in there I won't get him out. when ever I catch him out of it during the day I get him out and he bolts over to the cool side for it I swear!
 
I believe we can enhance or use a snakes natural behaviour to make keeping them just that little bit more special, i.e feeding: in nature a snake can learn where a particular group of animals regularly uses an invisible pathway to get from point (A) to point (B) and will use that knowledge to lay in wait on that pathway for the animal to ambush it, we can use that behaviour and make a certain point in the enclosure the feed zone, soon enough the natural instincts of the snake will kick in and we can find that when our snake is hungry it will eventually wait at that spot for food, it is not training the snake as such it is more like us mimicking the snakes natural behaviour. Or we can use the snakes natural fear of predation by putting in raised basking platforms for younger snakes ie 6mths to 2 years and putting branches or the like up to the platform, the snakes fear of predation will naturally find the snake seeking out the safety of a raised basking area thereby also giving us a better view of our snake, we have not "trained" the snake to do this but by supplying it with the platform we have enhanced the animals natural behaviour with its need to feel safe. As Luvbuz has said we cannot make a snake or any reptile for that matter do anything that is outside its ingrained natural behaviours that millions of years have compounded into it, we can only enhance what it already has, sure they have the propensity to learn but as i pointed out in the begining basicly they can only learn what is needed to survive. It will be interesting to read what others have to add to this as i am a book full of blank pages and always willing to learn more :) ....................................Ron
 
we can ...mimick the snakes natural behaviour. Or we put in raised basking platforms for younger snakes...we have enhanced the animals natural behaviour with its need to feel safe..., we can only enhance what it already has..
Some selective deletion, maybe the snakes are training us!!
 
The natural instinct of any wild snake is flight when humans approach
yet how many pet snakes flee when approached??

the natural instinct of any wild snake is to go mental if their head is even lightly restrained
yet I can lightly grip most of mine and even pull open their mouths to show their teeth without a quiver??

so exactly where do we draw the line with 'training'
 
Sure I have seen many snakes doing ball tricks like seals.

Train? No
Can they become accustomed to us and see us as less of a threat than a wild snake would? Yes.

I will accept snakes can be "trained" when I see them performing obstacle courses like dogs.
 
No. There really is no need for anything more than that one word on the topic...
 
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